The Expertise stat has to go...

[Bluetickone]

If Bio had any vision... they would have done away with the idea of a PvP stat... and designed a PvE Stat. A way to make 30 30 30 stats on both gear... with PvE raid gear that adds 10% bonuses too PvE content. That would have been the fix.... PvP stats are the completely wrong way to go about it... No NPC is going to wine that that fully geared raid group is smacking em 10% harder.

 

It is completely shocking and confounding to see Bioware make this mistake. The only reason expertise is in the game is to "reward" pvp players. But the reality is, it doesnt reward anyone. Making it easier for old pvp players to kill new pvp players only reduces pvp participation (who likes getting rotfl stomped) and so reduces old pvp players chances to participate in pvp.

 

This system couldnt have been any worse than it was in Rift -- and that was a mass exodus.

[Badal-Mirob]

Fully agree with the OP. Resil killed PvP in WoW and it will do the same here. At least till we get brackets.

 

Just one man's opinion...

[CapuchinSeven]

Good then you can **** clean off.

 

Productive use of forum time.

You need a PVP crutch, I don't.

 

If PVE and PVP gear of the same tier had the same stats except for a PVE stat that was needed for raiding then skill and team work would beat new players in raid gear.

 

If PVP gear and PVE gear are the same and a player in raid gear beats you, then he deserves to beat you.

 

Skill and team work, not PVP crutches and forum stars. Alien concept for you, clearly.

[CapuchinSeven]

It is completely shocking and confounding to see Bioware make this mistake. The only reason expertise is in the game is to "reward" pvp players. But the reality is, it doesnt reward anyone. Making it easier for old pvp players to kill new pvp players only reduces pvp participation (who likes getting rotfl stomped) and so reduces old pvp players chances to participate in pvp.

 

This system couldnt have been any worse than it was in Rift -- and that was a mass exodus.

 

+1

 

New players are the life blood of PVP.

I don't want to be 5 shot killing people in PVP thanks. That's the only place systems like this can go, they've failed horribly over and over again.

[Hamstaxo]

yeah remove expertise and make it more impossible than it already is to heal somebody

expertise atm gives us a chance to fight longer than 3seconds

if i want to play instagib i'll start UT2004

[gloryhunterprime]

Agreed. We really should have a PvE stat and not a PvP stat. It only makes it difficult to get to the point that one is competitive considering soon you will be attacking people in battlemaster gear who have a 20% damage swing on you ( they do 10% more than you and you do 10% less). A PvE stat would solve this ie you deal 10% more damage to a mob. Putting you at a disadvantage to PvP geared people but not making it seem impossible to compete.

[Klajo]

Other than the "exclusivity" of being %10 better at any given PvE/PvP activity in this game; why do we need any special stats at all?

 

Want to join my pre-made? How much expertise you got?

Want to join my raid? How much (PvE stat) you got?

 

You know people are going to do it.

I've seen it in other games. Denied because you didn't spend most of your time on whatever activity.

 

Although, if players were rewarded with equally strong gear from either PvP or PvE, everyone can enjoy whatever aspect of the game they want to at any time as long as he/she has earned the gear.

 

I personally enjoy both, and it would be great if I could effectively mix my PvE and PvP gear without worrying about my 'special' stat. Instead I can play whichever part of the game I want each day and have a chance to get an upgrade.

 

So no more PvP geared people owning PvE players because of "expertise".

No more Raid geared players "blowing" people up in Warzones because they are decked in Raid gear.

 

Why? Everyone has access to the same strength of gear. Just spend time enjoying the game however you please and it will come to you.

 

Top end PvP gear already comes in those random loot bags so its not always a 'sure' thing.

Just like looting a Raid boss.

 

Let your victories come because you are a good player and not because of a 'special' stat on your gear.

 

my opinion

[Iskur]

Nothing is wrong with expertise.

 

It prevents hardcore PvE players from dominating with there purple gear. Take out exp and these guys get a leg up.

 

As for the whole argument of what about down the road when a fresh 50 comes to pvp and gets shreded.

 

Just copy WoW's craftable lower level pvp gear so the gap between the fresh players and the guys decked out in the top of the line purple pvp is not that great.

 

Res wrecked wow? Yea the the guys running around in full instance gear with the oranges smashing face that was real balance. Plus only a select few elite could get pvp gear? Give me a break I could cap out and did cap out and get enough pvp gear to hold my own in a week or 2.

 

The question is though if the stat is there just to keep the PVE gear out why does it increase with each tier of gear. Its existence alone should be enough to keep the PVE gear out. The ever increasing scaling between tiers breaks the game.

 

I wouldn't even say you need a state. Just have something like 5 PVP gear pieces per tier each piece reduces PVP damage by 5% for a 25% damage reduction total.

[Iskur]

Other than the "exclusivity" of being %10 better at any given PvE/PvP activity in this game; why do we need any special stats at all?

 

Want to join my pre-made? How much expertise you got?

Want to join my raid? How much (PvE stat) you got?

 

Thats it in a nut shell. We dont want PVP becoming an elitists e-sport that no one plays. All that we need is a set damage reduction for using a PVP set. No scaling between tiers.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Iskur

[Celebrus]

There is no logical explanation for having a PvP stat in this MMO game, or in fact any MMO game. The only possible reason for Expertise to exist in this game is to screw over people who cant grind it first.

 

 

Couldn't agree with that more, however, thats basically what PvP is supposed to be. At least according to every "hardcore" pvper I've ever met.

 

They all support systems in which only the most "dedicated" or "lifeless" players have access to virtually any gear worth using, then turn around and claim that "PvP is only fun on an even playing field" as they gleefully kill ungeared nubs in their pre-mades, somehow feeling "skilled" at the end of the day.

 

It's rather amusing and contradicting to say the least.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Celebrus

[Terrestrial]

Sorry, but virtually every MMO is a grind. The hardcore always gear faster and get there first. It is true in PvE and PvP. Bioware is following this trend, for good or bad. This MMO is not revolutionary by BW's own statements.

 

Still the best I've played in terms of story and concept. If only SWG had had story behind it and no crappy CU.

[Migrayn]

Same old argument used in every gear based MMO. People always complain about PvP only stats and gear. Your argument is old and tired.

 

The reason why it is a good idea to have PvP armor is for one of the reasons you stated. What about those of us who may not like raiding? Why should we be at a disadvantage because of that? Raiders can go grind WZ's too, you know.

 

I dont have time to raid. I love to pvp. Why does pve gear have to be better then pvp gear. You do not need expertise to make pvp gear equal. If you coulx get different setz of pvp gear that had the same stats as pve gear then you would not have to raid.

 

If they put in high stat mods to earn from pvp then you could make your fav armor equal to pve armor. You do not need expertise to compete with pve gear.

 

It would just be a different way to get gear which is the whole point. If you need expertise to beat someone in pve gead then maybe you need more practice.

[Gorto]

If PVE and PVP gear of the same tier had the same stats except for a PVE stat that was needed for raiding then skill and team work would beat new players in raid gear.

 

If gear is a same then that pisses off the hardcore raiders who only want to pve. There gears ends up on a 1 week lock out while pvpers can get commendations and top level bags each day.

 

Gives the advantage in pve to those who pvp and pve. So all those guild who want world 1st are forced to pve and pvp gear grind.

[CapuchinSeven]

If gear is a same then that pisses off the hardcore raiders who only want to pve. There gears ends up on a 1 week lock out while pvpers can get commendations and top level bags each day.

 

Gives the advantage in pve to those who pvp and pve. So all those guild who want world 1st are forced to pve and pvp gear grind.

 

FFS, is reading comprehension even taught in schools these days?

EXACTLY what you're describing is why a PVE only stat is used.

 

I'm sorry if I sound annoyed but it's a little bit hard to grasp why people keep saying the same thing when it's been made clear by so many people in this thread alone.

 

PVP gear would be useless in PVE without the PVE stat (this isn't some new idea, without the PVE stat raid bosses hit harder and you hit for less), no one would be using PVP gear to raid in. There will ALWAYS be a PVE mob/boss to kill but PVP HAS to have a constant flow of new players else it dies. That's all systems like expertise do, the problem is small now but PVP will slowly die, just like it did in Rift and so many games before it.

 

New players in PVE gear wouldn't be a problem because the same PVP gear would have the very same stats. If they STILL beat you and you're in equal gear then they are just better PVPers than you, and frankly they deserve to win.

 

PVP gear and PVE gear should have the same stats, no one would own in PVP with PVE gear but you wouldn't be able to use PVP gear in PVE raids. This isn't some new fancy concept, other games have done it before now.

 

People need to start waking up to the fact that developers really are clueless, TRUST me I know enough of them. They honestly have the craziest ides about what the average gamers want. I promise you 100% the Rift developers are sat around a table saying "why r teh people not PVPz anymore!?!??! LETS ADD MORE PEEVEEPEE stats, that'll fix it!!!!11!!".

Edited January 11, 2012 by CapuchinSeven

[anstalt]

FFS, is reading comprehension even taught in schools these days?

EXACTLY what you're describing is why a PVE only stat is used.

 

I'm sorry if I sound annoyed but it's a little bit hard to grasp why people keep saying the same thing when it's been made clear by so many people in this thread alone.

 

PVP gear would be useless in PVE without the PVE stat (this isn't some new idea, without the PVE stat raid bosses hit harder and you hit for less), no one would be using PVP gear to raid in. There will ALWAYS be a PVE mob/boss to kill but PVP HAS to have a constant flow of new players else it dies. That's all systems like expertise do, the problem is small now but PVP will slowly die, just like it did in Rift and so many games before it.

 

If you introduce a PvE only stat it simply shifts the current problem we have in pvp onto the pve community, it doesn't fix the problem so I am against a pve only stat. They implemented such a thing in LOTRO, called radiance. Bosses in raids had a "gloom" rating which was countered by "radiance" on raid gear. You needed a certain amount of radience to perform even remotely well against a boss.

 

All that ended up happening was radience, a pve-only stat that only affected bosses, ended up segregating the community. The hardcores, including myself, ground our gear first and got max radience from one set of instances, then focused on raids. The hardcores, myself included, then had no motivation or incentive to repeat lower level instances so the next set of people coming through found it harder to get radience to be able to raid. This meant less new blood for the raiding community and less flexibility if you were a few people short. It took two years, but eventually Turbine admitted their mistake and removed radience. Immediately, more people were raiding and everyone was happier.

 

 

 

Whenever you a stat like expertise or radiance, all it does is segregate the community between the haves and the have-nots. It is bad for the long term surviability of the community. However, at the same time, I fully understand the desire to keep pvp and pve gear completely separate.

 

 

The solution, as I've said a few times in this thread, is to make the on ramp extremely easy and to remove the progression of the exclusive stat. So, if Bioware are keeping the expertise stat, my advice would be:

 

1) Remove all expertise from level 1-49 gear as we'll have the level 1-49 bracket, thus no1 pvping before 50 has to worry about expertise.

 

2) At 50, add a new set before centurion, purchasable for credits, which adds up to 1000 expertise but has lower stats than centurion

 

3) Edit centurion, champion and battlemaster gear so that the full sets add up to 1000 expertise.

 

These three simple steps would solve all the issues with expertise (once the 50 bracket is implemented...). It keeps expertise in there so that pvp gear is completely separate to pve gear so that hardcore pve raiders can't use their epic raid loot to walk all over pvpers. However, it removes expertise as a progression route so that it no longer amplifies the gear gap. By having a purchasable set at 50, there is a very easy on-ramp so fresh 50s can purchase the set instantly and then start pvping without being at an expertise disadvantage. finally, there still remains a pvp gear progression as battlemaster still has superior stats to the other sets, so the carrot is still there for dedicated pvpers.

 

Thoughts?

[Clege]

100% agree with the OP. Everything is says is 100% true and his solution is great.

[Clege]

double post : / Edited January 11, 2012 by Clege

[Clege]

I only wish I had the power to look at each person's account that has posted in this thread to see which ones have most of their PvP gear and which do not.

 

I have a feeling the ones that try to justify the existance of the stat are the oens who spent alot of time grinding to get the gear. Its only a hunch, but if its true, Id have to say that definatly would skew an opinion from being unbias.

 

Also wanted to say, I have seen a couple of poeple suggest moving the expertice stat from the PvP side ot the PvE side. I think these people need to get free college scholarships because in their moment of epiphany could very well change BioWare's Pvp system form being a frustrating hassle to an enjoyable act.

[Sookster]

I haven't played WoW since mid 2006, that was long after TBC came out (introduction of resilience), my shaman had plenty of resilience and with earth shield as a resto, it was crazy easy to survive pvp because almost nobody could land crits. Part of why i stopped playing that game.

 

I don't want to see this happening in TOR, especially with how easy it is to stack consumables. Hopefully BW is paying close attention to this like they said they would, this past week alone pvp has practically changed for the worse now that more and more people are gearing up and figuring out powerful combinations (why didn't enough of this happen during beta?).

Edited January 11, 2012 by Sookster

[Verindel]

Sorry PvP gear is easy to get.

You don't even need to be winning to do it.

You don't need your team to be working together to get it.

 

It may take longer if you don't have a team working together but it's easy enough to form a group.

 

If you want PvP gear to be on par with PvE gear it needs a PvP stat. Otherwise people would need to PvP to raid. PvEers suffer.

 

If PvP gear isn't on par with raid gear. Raiders dominate PvP. PvPers suffer.

 

PvP stat gear, newbies suffer for a small time.

 

The only thing at the moment is 50s in full PvP gear dominating 49s and below because the lower levels don't have access to any PvP gear with PvP stats.

[BDutch]

All that ended up happening was radience, a pve-only stat that only affected bosses, ended up segregating the community. The hardcores, including myself, ground our gear first and got max radience from one set of instances, then focused on raids. The hardcores, myself included, then had no motivation or incentive to repeat lower level instances so the next set of people coming through found it harder to get radience to be able to raid. This meant less new blood for the raiding community and less flexibility if you were a few people short. It took two years, but eventually Turbine admitted their mistake and removed radience. Immediately, more people were raiding and everyone was happier.

 

I like your constructive suggestion, but here are my thoughts regarding PvE vs PvP specific stats. My thinking is that segregating the PvE community is not as bad as segregating the PvP community since you don't want people to skip PvE content. From your perspective I can understand why you would get sick and tired of running the same stuff over and over, but from the perspective of the people you'd be helping, that's new content for them that they should be experiencing.

 

With PvP it's the opposite, IMO. You don't have a ton of different WZ/open world areas that are gated based on your stats. We're about to get one, and I'm not sure that everyone even wants it. I'm not saying a level 50 bracket isn't required with the game in it's current state, I'm just saying that if after 1.1 you're having fun doing WZ at level 49 then why would you even want to go to level 50? It's just less people to play with and starting a new grind for gear to do what you were already doing... it's nothing new, it's just running the same stuff over again but turning your advantage back to a handicap.

 

If there were new WZ, Illum was appealing, or some substantial benefit to doing this then perhaps it would be more appealing to me. Sacrificing gameplay for gear is just a waste of time to me. More importantly I'm concerned that it will seem like a waste of time to my would-be competition as well.

[CapuchinSeven]

If you introduce a PvE only stat it simply shifts the current problem we have in pvp onto the pve community, it doesn't fix the problem so I am against a pve only stat. They implemented such a thing in LOTRO, called radiance. Bosses in raids had a "gloom" rating which was countered by "radiance" on raid gear. You needed a certain amount of radience to perform even remotely well against a boss.

 

How many MMOs have you played...?

 

If you're not wearing raid gear from the previous raids then you're not going to be able to move on to the harder raids.

 

Everything you said is basically null, a PVE stat doesn't create this issue, it already happens.

[art-media]

just make expertise go and provide same stat stuff like in raids through pvp ... current situation is just stupid

[Lexp]

PvErs don't want to PvP for their gear, PvPers don't want to PvE for their gear, a PvP stat fixes this, there's really no problem at all. Anyone complaining is just sad they can't gain advantages in PvP through killing dragons.

[Togx]

They need to buff expertise so that it reduces more damage taken, currently DPS scaling is crazily good compared to healing scaling or survivability scaling, if this continues we'll all die in seconds when the next tier of pvp/pve gear comes.