The Expertise stat has to go...

[vichnaiev]

If Bio had any vision... they would have done away with the idea of a PvP stat... and designed a PvE Stat. A way to make 30 30 30 stats on both gear... with PvE raid gear that adds 10% bonuses too PvE content. That would have been the fix.... PvP stats are the completely wrong way to go about it... No NPC is going to wine that that fully geared raid group is smacking em 10% harder.

 

Warhammer works as you suggest and it works PERFECTLY FINE. TOR should change it as well.

[Jessie-Lacey]

so your saying that level 50's shouldn't have a gear advatage over lower levels. Every game has PVP rating, it's there for a reason and I think a level 50 bracket makes more sense just to keep the people who are way stronger because of expertise in their own league. I mean level 14 v geared level 50 never made sense anyways. I think taking out the only PVP stat would just break PVP if anything. There wouldn't be any need for PVP gear anymore. So everyone would just use the same stuff. If you don't use the same spec for PVE and PVP why use the same gear?

 

Really I think the level 50 PVP bracket makes more sense. It won't mess with the queue's that much, I mean I wait all of 2 minutes queuing solo on my server and it's not even a PVP server. So say that doubles to 4 minutes that's still not bad, and it's a small price to pay for more balanced end game PVP.

[Orangerascal]

A PVE stat instead of a PVP stat totally removes this problem, PVP gear wouldn't have it and the PVE stat only has a effect in flash points/operations meaning the gear doesn't make you anymore powerful in PVP than someone with the same tier PVP gear.

 

Hell, you could make raid gear WORSE in stats than PVP gear and it would still be better in PVE because of the PVE stat.

 

Adding a pve expertise and removing pvp expertise will do absolutely nothing mathematically. What this would do is lower the gear gap from lvl 49's and level 50's because you there is no double dip on the expertise.

 

I'm all for it and I suggested it earlier. But I'm not sure bioware is willing to spend 100's of hours reitemizing everything.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Orangerascal

[xlDARKSIDElx]

Here is my take on this, I am probably in the minority here but...The PvP gear the way it is currently set up is something you work for, like in PvE gear. You start out doing Heroics in crap gear and doing terrible dps and taking tons of damage but you work through it and eventually you gear up and things become easier and you progress through content.

 

PvP gear is no different, when 50's brackets are introduced the "old" 50's that have their gear will have an advantage over those without it because they have been doing this longer and have earned their gear. Fresh 50's haven't put in the time on those characters and need to earn their gear to be on the same level. So at first the matches may be harder to win and you may do less damage but in time you will get your gear as well and be rewarded for your efforts and dedication to playing PvP.

 

That's just my mentality on it. I don't think you should be able to hit 50 and almost right away be on par with 50's that have been there for weeks or months earning their commendations and gear. And for me the fun of an MMO is gearing up and seeing your character improve. And one last point, just because the "older" 50's have better gear and an advantage in that regard, doesn't make them unbeatable. I have won plenty of matches against teams with 4 or more 50's and a bunch of scrubs on my team because we used teamwork and didn't get into battles we knew we couldn't win. The WZs are objective based so its better than them being team deathmatch, then I could see the big unfair advantage.

 

Anyway, that's just my feelings on the subject.

[Khitchary]

Its this simple. People who do PvP need to earn gear from this. It needs to be better than PvE gear for the purpose of doing PvP. If you stop and think about that for any length of time you will realise one thing. People who have the PvP gear will have an unfair adv over those who do not. Best solution is ----- Make PvP gear relatively easy to get, since most PvP players do not like to farm, and then the casual PvP players will still get their gear. Also your entire argument is based upon the idea that no one new takes up PvP ....... Wrong. Lots of people get over PvE and migrate to PvP as a result. That or they dont have the time that PvE takes to gear. Personally I DONT EVEN MIND if the people who dont want to PvP dont, and those who do want to follow their whim also. No harm in PvE players not doing PvP. Make the gear easy for them to get if they want to, I know for SURE that the *skill cap* of PvP and having to actually bind your keys instead of Click is going to drive them away anyhows. In other words .. you defeat your own argument OP. (unless you are actually trying to say that there should be no gear adv in PvP at all ... which I would be ok with, everyone has equal stats and the only thing you get out of PvP is the fun and perhaps some neat LOOKING gear with no stats since everyone has the same stats it wouldnt matter. Just asking for the removal of the PvP stat is madness, you need a better plan than your half baked cookie to make that achieve anything.

[RJMazz]

Did you not read what I wrote, pvp gear is much easier to get than pve gear so raids will farm the pvp gear and faceroll the end game content. We've seen this in other games like rift. Bioware has learned from other company mistakes and don't want to trivialize their endgame content.

 

Step number 1: Take expertise out.

 

Step number 2: Think of general endgame gear.

 

Step number 3: Calculate proper and equal times to acquire gear and amounts of currency

 

Test, correct and implement

 

 

 

 

Better solution yet: Do all of the above and make the same type of gear acquireable from crafting as well.

 

If anything, just make and calculate the time you take to get said currencies from both PvE, PvP and craft the same and you can either focus on one or play either. It's the same and no one is at disadvantage

[Speno]

So what your saying is that all the time I took so far to get 500 expertise and rank 54 . You would like to be a waist of my time. No thanks.

[Orangerascal]

Step number 1: Take expertise out.

 

Step number 2: Think of general endgame gear.

 

Step number 3: Calculate proper and equal times to acquire gear and amounts of currency

 

Test, correct and implement

 

 

 

 

Better solution yet: Do all of the above and make the same type of gear acquireable from crafting as well.

 

If anything, just make and calculate the time you take to get said currencies from both PvE, PvP and craft the same and you can either focus on one or play either. It's the same and no one is at disadvantage

 

Except this is not conducive to bioware's business plan. If you can attain all three items with equal work, then you spend less time on their content. The separation of pve or pvp means that you spend more time in their game, making them more money. If bioware spends a lot of money and time to develop multi facets of the game ... then they are sure to make you participate in it.

 

Is this your first mmo?

Edited January 9, 2012 by Orangerascal

[BDutch]

Here is my take on this, I am probably in the minority here but...The PvP gear the way it is currently set up is something you work for, like in PvE gear. You start out doing Heroics in crap gear and doing terrible dps and taking tons of damage but you work through it and eventually you gear up and things become easier and you progress through content.

 

PvP gear is no different, when 50's brackets are introduced the "old" 50's that have their gear will have an advantage over those without it because they have been doing this longer and have earned their gear. Fresh 50's haven't put in the time on those characters and need to earn their gear to be on the same level. So at first the matches may be harder to win and you may do less damage but in time you will get your gear as well and be rewarded for your efforts and dedication to playing PvP.

 

That's just my mentality on it. I don't think you should be able to hit 50 and almost right away be on par with 50's that have been there for weeks or months earning their commendations and gear. And for me the fun of an MMO is gearing up and seeing your character improve. And one last point, just because the "older" 50's have better gear and an advantage in that regard, doesn't make them unbeatable. I have won plenty of matches against teams with 4 or more 50's and a bunch of scrubs on my team because we used teamwork and didn't get into battles we knew we couldn't win. The WZs are objective based so its better than them being team deathmatch, then I could see the big unfair advantage.

 

Anyway, that's just my feelings on the subject.

 

That makes sense to me in a way, but there are some key differences between PvE and PvP. In PvE it doesn't matter as much if you segment your population; you never have to wait for NPCs to kill. In PvP you want as little segmentation as possible so that you have more people to play against. The higher you raise the bar, the more brackets you have to introduce, the more you spread out your playerbase, the less people there are to play with.

 

Combine that with no cross-server PvP, faction imbalances, and varying numbers of 50s on a given server right now... it's all just a high price to pay, and for what? Protecting PvP from uber PvE gear? How much of that is going on here? The only gear discrepancy is the one they created by trying to prevent issues with gear discrepancy? At least on my server, I just don't see the uber guilds farming raids that would enable them to dominate in PvP.

 

I think it's more likely that people just enjoy dominating other players and either don't think about what it will do to the PvP population or simply don't care.

[bklynfinest]

Its this simple. People who do PvP need to earn gear from this. It needs to be better than PvE gear for the purpose of doing PvP. If you stop and think about that for any length of time you will realise one thing. People who have the PvP gear will have an unfair adv over those who do not. Best solution is ----- Make PvP gear relatively easy to get, since most PvP players do not like to farm, and then the casual PvP players will still get their gear. Also your entire argument is based upon the idea that no one new takes up PvP ....... Wrong. Lots of people get over PvE and migrate to PvP as a result. That or they dont have the time that PvE takes to gear. Personally I DONT EVEN MIND if the people who dont want to PvP dont, and those who do want to follow their whim also. No harm in PvE players not doing PvP. Make the gear easy for them to get if they want to, I know for SURE that the *skill cap* of PvP and having to actually bind your keys instead of Click is going to drive them away anyhows. In other words .. you defeat your own argument OP. (unless you are actually trying to say that there should be no gear adv in PvP at all ... which I would be ok with, everyone has equal stats and the only thing you get out of PvP is the fun and perhaps some neat LOOKING gear with no stats since everyone has the same stats it wouldnt matter. Just asking for the removal of the PvP stat is madness, you need a better plan than your half baked cookie to make that achieve anything.

 

THIS. I don't remember the last time in an MMO where I had to farm this much to be competitive in PvP. ** Please note I skipped the whole WOW thing.

 

*** ever happen to a bag of regs, some trapped pouches a hally and katana and you're G2G @_@

[MarcoMontana]

I don't want PVP stats on gear! 2 players fight each other with the same PVE gear 1 kills the other...

 

 

2 players fight each other with PVP gear, 1 kills the other its the same! The only difference is full PVP geared players padding their stats on lower lvl players, causing people to quit and call the game unbalanced!

 

 

Gear should be best in slot for YOUR class, I see no reason to have to change gear around all the time because we want to PVP, then PVE then change back to PVP when the que pops, then change back again to PVE waiting for que.... Its ridiculous!!!

 

 

Players vs Players should be based on their individual tactics and skill!! Not Player vs Other players Gear!!!

[MarcoMontana]

SWTOR = PVG

 

 

Player versus Gear....

 

LAME

[Orangerascal]

THIS. I don't remember the last time in an MMO where I had to farm this much to be competitive in PvP. ** Please note I skipped the whole WOW thing.

 

1) Wow

2) Aion

3) RoM

4) Rift

5) WAR

6) Atlantica online

 

and the list goes on and on and on. In fact unless you're playing an FPS or RTS, you're most like looking at a gear disparity.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Orangerascal

[bklynfinest]

1) Wow

2) Aion

3) RoM

4) Rift

5) WAR

6) Atlantica online

 

and the list goes on and on and on.

 

once again, please note I skipped the whole WOW thing (clarification: and their clones)

[richardya]

The original post made a lot of sense.

 

You get PvP gear so you can play somewhere that PvP doesn't matter because everynoe has it?

 

So, it's for open world areas? They better make Illum popular then.

[Orangerascal]

once again, please note I skipped the whole WOW thing (clarification: and their clones)

 

you realise a lot of swtor is based on wow right? I'll paraphrase a bioware developed 'You would be a fool not to copy blizzard'

Edited January 9, 2012 by Orangerascal

[MarcoMontana]

The bottom line is that end game PvE gear is almost always superior to end game PvP gear. Expertise covers this disparity in gear by preventing those that grind PvE like crazy from coming into a WZ and dominating people. Expertise is there for people who like to PvP, if you don't like expertise then don't PvP.

 

 

I quit Rift after 5 weeks, been here 2 I'll do the same...

[Ahhmyface]

The vast majority of you appear to be uninformed.

 

The PvE gear provides much higher stats then the PvP gear. So in effect, expertise is actually a crappy tradeoff. The PvP players can only pvp, and will suck if they try to raid, because they have 500+ stat points in nothing. And the PvE players will do alright in PvP because their higher stats make up for their lack of expertise. In fact, the absolute best pvp gear sets combine PvP and PvE gear.

 

The truth is that it doesn't matter whether there is expertise or not. If older players have an advantage, whether that is levels, expertise, or just stats or realm abilities, or whatever, THE EXACT SAME SITUATION APPLIES. The people think expertise is the cause just blow my mind. Wake up, and smell reality.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[Tacola]

Expertise is silly.

 

Or any PvE related stat is silly also.

 

First off, Gear should be the same.

 

How long in gameplay it would take to earn Accomodation needed to buy endgame PvP gear = how long it would take to earn the gear raiding.

 

Anyone that has PvE'ed and PvP'ed, like myself knows they have different dynamics.

 

Some PvE bosses have effects that Players dont have, so there is a learning curve.

Fighting a Sith player is much different from fighting a Sith NPC (I am jedi so we will go with that perspective). There in lays your Expertise. PvPing alot makes you a better PvPer. The same for PvE content, why have a stat?

 

You should get no boost from being in more fights other than the Knowledge and Accomdations you earn. Then use the knowledge and spend the accomdations anyway you see fit.

[Migrayn]

Alot of players is working really hard to get that gear doing 15+++ warzones everyday for weeks, so no they will not remove it to make only hardcore raiders have the best gear.

 

Why cant the pvp gear have equal stats to pve gear just without expertise on it. Why do you think pve raid gear is or should be better. The pvp gear should just be an alternative method of getting it.

 

Expertise does inflate damage numbers between haves and nots. It is the cause of all the hate on 50s in warfronts. The expertise makes thing unfair if you do not have it.

 

Remove expertise. Have mods that you can get from pvp to tweak your arm

or how you like. Make the top end stats equal to top pve stats.

[Scoobings]

Get crapped on by people who have expertise gear, or get crapped on by people who have Raid gear.

 

You're going to get crapped on by people with better gear than you. I'd rather have it by people who earned their stars at PVP and not by people who proved they can slay digital dragons.

[SmokingGoose]

A pvp stat is a way of differenciating those who pve from those who pvp.

To avoid having hardcore pve'rs come to WZ's and smash the faces of those hardcore pvp'rs because pve gear is always better .

PVE stopped beeing better than pvp gear for pvp when these stats were introduced in to games and thank god they did.

[Tacola]

Get crapped on by people who have expertise gear, or get crapped on by people who have Raid gear.

 

You're going to get crapped on by people with better gear than you. I'd rather have it by people who earned their stars at PVP and not by people who proved they can slay digital dragons.

 

Its goes both ways dude, it wouldn't take much skill to solo the Leroy Jenkins of the world. But go solo Hammer at his level.

[Hellapain]

A pvp stat is a way of differenciating those who pve from those who pvp.

To avoid having hardcore pve'rs come to WZ's and smash the faces of those hardcore pvp'rs because pve gear is always better .

PVE stopped beeing better than pvp gear for pvp when these stats were introduced in to games and thank god they did.

 

This^

 

It is unimaginable for me to see why some people have a hard time grasping this idea.

[Scoobings]

Why cant the pvp gear have equal stats to pve gear just without expertise on it. Why do you think pve raid gear is or should be better. The pvp gear should just be an alternative method of getting it.

 

Expertise does inflate damage numbers between haves and nots. It is the cause of all the hate on 50s in warfronts. The expertise makes thing unfair if you do not have it.

 

Remove expertise. Have mods that you can get from pvp to tweak your arm

or how you like. Make the top end stats equal to top pve stats.

 

Because raiding gear is going to have even MORE damage stats on it. That's what happened in WoW Vanilla before they started trying to fix the problem. People who raided Nax were LITERALLY 2 shotting people (Read: not this exageration crap that's going on in the forums right now. I'm talking Literal, Equal level characters 2 shotting each other).

 

It's the nature of progression. Raiders have to do more damage or there can't be PVE progression. PVPers need to also progress through gear, but need to not be destroyed in 2 seconds or the game isn't fun.

 

Answer: Expertise. You still progress through gear but players on equal teir levels aren't killing one another before the other has a chance to react.

 

You're going to get murdered by people with better gear. It's a fact in MMOs. If you don't like that you need to play an FPS.

 

Example: DCUO implimented a type of "warzone" called legends, where instead of your own character everyone chose a legened (like batman) to play as. Gear was a nonfactor and everyone was on equal level.

 

That's something they could impiment, because it did function as a way to gear up without getting stomped by people in PVP gear. What eventually happened though was people hated Legends, and one of the large reasons was because they wanted to play with their own character and benefit from their hardwork and progression.

 

I personally like PVP gear, and the expertise stat and I don't even have any pieces yet.