"Addons are stupid and WoW is easy."

[demoncrat]

It gives them a crazy advantage. A casual player has essentially no chance to contribute to a PvP warzone against people with tons of crazy minmaxing addons. In PvE, addons often lead to groups demanding that all players have certain addons, i.e., LF1M Healer for XXX, must have DamageMeter!

 

I've never seen demands for addons outside of raiding and if you're raiding you're not casual anymore.

[Raeln]

That's funny, BWL, AQ40 and Naxx were the high points of raiding for me. Maybe I just happened to raid with sensible people. Out of interest, would you advocate the way bosses worked in EQ for todays raid enviroment? You can't deny that's part of the excitement in EQ. If everyone could just go and kill any boss (because it'd be instanced), would you have enjoyed the sea of basically tank n spank fo 40 minutes encounters?

 

I would hardly say that Planes of Power bosses were all tank and spank. Velious, yeah.

 

Honestly, I really don't care what bosses do. Tank and spank don't bother me but I don't play MMOs for any sense of challenge whatsoever. I find challenge in my job, house projects, or any number of other things. If I wanted challenge from a game, I'd load up some challenge missions in Arkham City tonight. I'm not going to hunt for challenge in an online game where there are many factors outside of my control that wreck my experience.

 

If you haven't figured it out - I play MMOs as something to do with my other online friends. Since my hardcore days in EQ1/early WoW, I've found that challenge typically ends up being an artificial wall that separates me from being able to bring my friends along. In other words, when I was raiding - I had to do it without them. I'm tired of that type of play.

[Raeln]

How exactly do you "get a sense" for when you're going to pull aggro? There are so many variables involved that it's practically impossible. Threat drop boss abilities, your own threat dumps, tank knockdowns and stuns, tank miss streaks... it's impossible to judge when you will pull aggro without a meter or voice chat so the tank can call out "hey I'm stunned and missing a lot".

 

People vastly overestimate how much effect addons actually have on the gameplay of an MMO. Most (if not all) addons are quality of life enhancements (mailbox, auction, UI addons) or provide additional information, or provide information in a better format (damage meters, threat meters, boss ability timers, cooldown timers). There hasn't been an addon that actually plays the game for you since vanilla WoW, and even that was quickly broken by Blizzard because it was retarded.

 

Threat drop abilities became commonplace as a result of the threat meter. It's a real chicken and the egg issue. While there was the odd threat drop in the past, it wasn't something to expect commonly - so the raid coordinated and DPS knew what to expect when it happened.

 

As an enchanter in EQ1 and a raiding mage in WoW, yes - I almost always "knew" when I was around the 95% threat mark of the tank. This type of perception comes with a heavy investment in the character and spending time playing it. It's not something that would be learned by someone that just levels a DPS class as an alt and takes it out to raid once in awhile. It's a learned skill. I knew when to back off and the trigger point for that was typically a chain of crits. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that chaining crits is going to build a lot of aggro - though Blizzard has practically destroyed that meta game with insane tank threat and high crit rates. Sad really.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Raeln

[Serranex]

I would hardly say that Planes of Power bosses were all tank and spank. Velious, yeah.

 

Honestly, I really don't care what bosses do. Tank and spank don't bother me but I don't play MMOs for any sense of challenge whatsoever. I find challenge in my job, house projects, or any number of other things. If I wanted challenge from a game, I'd load up some challenge missions in Arkham City tonight. I'm not going to hunt for challenge in an online game where there are many factors outside of my control that wreck my experience.

 

If you haven't figured it out - I play MMOs as something to do with my other online friends. Since my hardcore days in EQ1/early WoW, I've found that challenge typically ends up being an artificial wall that separates me from being able to bring my friends along. In other words, when I was raiding - I had to do it without them. I'm tired of that type of play.

 

Damage meters existed in PoP. Most guilds did not use them. My guild did. We performed far better because of it.

 

You know those 5k DPS in WoW when the average is around 20k? We had a couple of those. It wasn't a big issue, let them know they probably should use skill X, and suddenly our guild as a whole was way better.

 

So basically you're asking for content that can be face-rolled. That's fine. I respect that. However, just know that there are people out there that enjoy something resembling challenge. And a challenging encounter SHOULD require absolute understanding of the encounter - and this cannot happen without a combat log.

[Sythrasz]

I would hardly say that Planes of Power bosses were all tank and spank. Velious, yeah.

 

Honestly, I really don't care what bosses do. Tank and spank don't bother me but I don't play MMOs for any sense of challenge whatsoever. I find challenge in my job, house projects, or any number of other things. If I wanted challenge from a game, I'd load up some challenge missions in Arkham City tonight. I'm not going to hunt for challenge in an online game where there are many factors outside of my control that wreck my experience.

 

If you haven't figured it out - I play MMOs as something to do with my other online friends. Since my hardcore days in EQ1/early WoW, I've found that challenge typically ends up being an artificial wall that separates me from being able to bring my friends along. In other words, when I was raiding - I had to do it without them. I'm tired of that type of play.

First highlight: that's where we differ then.

 

Also, I meant specifically the world boss-y-ness of EQ. Blowable spawns and so on. You think that'd suit todays MMOs?

[Raeln]

Damage meters existed in PoP. Most guilds did not use them. My guild did. We performed far better because of it.

 

Negative. Damage meters did not exist. Combat log parsers did exist - but they were analyzed after the fight and were 3rd party applications.

 

You know those 5k DPS in WoW when the average is around 20k? We had a couple of those. It wasn't a big issue, let them know they probably should use skill X, and suddenly our guild as a whole was way better.

 

I'm not saying damage meters have no place. There are many good tools in this world that are good in the hands of a few; however, how the majority will use them makes them dangerous. Thus, they must be restricted.

 

I'm not opposed for a internal UI mechanism to work on combat rotations while at a training dummy.

 

So basically you're asking for content that can be face-rolled. That's fine. I respect that. However, just know that there are people out there that enjoy something resembling challenge. And a challenging encounter SHOULD require absolute understanding of the encounter - and this cannot happen without a combat log.

 

That's the only kind of content that should be in an MMORPG. If you examine the history of MMORPGs altogether, they begin to lose customers (at least from PvE) every time they attempt to put seriously challenging content in.

 

In no world will any honest person agree that 5% player content absorption is successful.

 

Ironically, the other 95% is in the faceroll content. Might I point you toward WoW's LFR system right now. Wildly successful. I've been telling my friends that system was coming for years - too bad Blizzard waited until after I left the game to implement it.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Raeln

[Raeln]

First highlight: that's where we differ then.

 

Also, I meant specifically the world boss-y-ness of EQ. Blowable spawns and so on. You think that'd suit todays MMOs?

 

No, and that was one of my largest complaints of EQ1. I gave them a pass at the time because instancing tech was just coming on the scene. It was a horrendous time sink to scout and track when all those bosses died so the guild could plan to be first in force when they respawned.

 

In hindsight, what a colossal waste of time - messing with all those world bosses.

[Xesorla]

We need simple addons such as threat meters.

 

we NEED. Yes I said need.

 

All content in the game has been cleared already. Without threat meters.

 

They must not be needed.

 

Just because you got used to having crutches in one other game, doesn't mean all games should provide the same crutch.

 

UI customization, great! Addons that give me info that using my brain would already give me? No thanks.

[Albytaps]

Did I miss something here or did WoW have damage meters from the start? I know they had a combat log (it's crazy this game doesn't) but why all this anger towards Bioware for not having damage meters?

 

Are WoW damage meters actually made by Blizzard? Aren't they 3rd party software? Give Bioware a break and let the game develope. Make some alts and chill for a bit.

[Sythrasz]

Did I miss something here or did WoW have damage meters from the start? I know they had a combat log (it's crazy this game doesn't) but why all this anger towards Bioware for not having damage meters?

 

Are WoW damage meters actually made by Blizzard? Aren't they 3rd party software? Give Bioware a break and let the game develope. Make some alts and chill for a bit.

 

The thing is WoW allowed UI mods from the start.

[Liaer]

All content in the game has been cleared already. Without threat meters.

 

They must not be needed.

 

Just because you got used to having crutches in one other game, doesn't mean all games should provide the same crutch.

 

UI customization, great! Addons that give me info that using my brain would already give me? No thanks.

 

 

 

Yup, which means the content will probably be faceroll easy once the bugs are ironed out. EV is already being full cleared by PUGs on normal mode, its only a matter of time to farm gear before they go to hard.

 

Right now the biggest obstacle to hard mode is the crippling bugs on the bosses, means that only the realy top guilds can do them, the good guilds and mediocre ones are either getting ****-blocked by bugs or (like mine) waiting for a couple more people to level.

[alextrebek]

What I think a lot of people don't realize is that purely from a developmental standpoint, not having AddOns actually makes the game/new content a lot easier to tune since everyone is on an even playing field. I know that a lot of people who played WoW, myself included, find the lack of AddOns, macros, target-of-target to be an uncomfortable and often-times very frustrating change because it brings your capabilities as a player below the par you've probably set for yourself in other video games, and consequently closer to worse players who either didn't utilize the additional UI features available to them, or didn't utilize them as well as they could have, but a couple certain things should be realized before people unload their frustration:

 

1) The drop in ability you're experiencing in your play is not unique- it's affected everyone else. If you can't handle the fact that it's bringing your level of performance closer to that of worse players, then you should probably reevaluate how you actually perform in the first place. If you are a legitimately good player (efficient keybindings, solid awareness, in-depth knowledge of role/class, sharp reflexes, intelligent response process to new obstacles), it will still show.

 

Note: I do understand that it is harder to evaluate DPS/Healing performance without meters, but like I said: if you are a legitimately a good player, it will still show, especially if you can do the math/show the math that your 'superior' rotation/specc. are based upon. If you can prove to your guild that you know how to min/max your performance on top of not standing-in-the-fire, it will be noted- if it's not, chances are you either aren't as good as you think you are, or you're not in a guild good/smart enough to recognize your ability and should consider playing with people more to your caliber.

 

2) With everyone on a level playing field, new content is much easier to tune. This should, I say should because if it doesn't it means that the BioWare dev team is not pulling their weight, make the release of new content a faster and more efficient process, and it should make the balancing of current pvp/content a faster and more efficient process as well.

 

Again on this note, the fact that there is no auto-attack also makes tuning/calculations easier and more efficient. It certainly makes my life easier in terms of doing the math for my class and my raid, and I can only assume that BioWare uses the same calculations to balance their encounters (You do tune your raids/itemization with math first and testing after, don't you!!!).

 

---

 

Finally, coming from playing WoW at the level I did (if it means anything, believe me, it was at a higher level than whatever anyone else here has come from) I can honestly say that I would prefer if the game stayed where it was in terms of AddOns, macros, etc. Although I would recommend that ToT and some form of Damage/Healing meters be added as I think that without either the game actually becomes less streamlined/simple, and subsequently tuning becomes more difficult.

[Warstrike]

This is NOT about what MODS should be allowed.

This is REALLY about what kind of CULTURE we want in this game.

 

The FACT that we have two populations of gamers is pretty evident

Call tehm EXCEL and CASUAL

 

Mxing these two groups is GREAT from a game publisher standpoint

It makes you $$$$$$

However forcibly mixing these two groups has has lead to a LOT of bad stuff

This has lead to a LOT of bad habits that have come about in MMO community

Often by folks trying to "sort" players.

Often the EXCEL players trying to sort out CASUAL players.

 

CASUAL players don't really care, they just want to play

 

If we can fix that cultural dynamic

then what kind of mods used kinda becomes moot.

 

(Yes this gets even more emotional when confonting PVP issues)

 

 

The KEY issue here is that the EXCEL and CASUAL don't mix well.

In a happy world of early MMO's (say TBC/WOW) the groups tended to self-segregate

 

However then the LFG tool happend

And you got EXTRA BONUS if you used it

- so you HAD to use it.

So...... EXCEL's were forcibly mixed with CASUALS

 

 

So... "incompetent" was mixed with "a...hole" and... in response we get....

a) Gear score.... please show me you have a clue via your gear

b) Damage meters... here is how clueless you are by your crappy dps

c) Add-on checks; cause if they have addon's they are more likely "not an idiot"

d) The "Group-kick" and then "Gear-check/Group kick" and the"Tank-Rage-Quit"

 

Leading to .....

Lack of healers (cause so-so healing was hard to hide)

Lack of Tanks (cause so-so tanking is impossible to hide)

HUGE excess DPS'ers (cause so-so dps don't cause wipes - mostly)

 

So... now...

We have a new game

A REALLY good game

Lots of folks like it

 

But....

Game Designers STILL want to make games that sell to LOTS of folks.

(so both types will forever more be smashed together)

Thus the conflict will continue

 

Options Ideas ????

A "Radial button flag" for Casual vs Competative? when you sign up for a run?

A real "Two levels of play" option that lets you progress slowly

Some way to keep the two groups apart

 

Don't even ask me how to fix PVP balance issues

(I don't think you can... ever... really)

 

Looking for an option here

Because this is a really good game

And I want to play it.

[Lymain]

What I think a lot of people don't realize is that purely from a developmental standpoint, not having AddOns actually makes the game/new content a lot easier to tune since everyone is on an even playing field. I know that a lot of people who played WoW, myself included, find the lack of AddOns, macros, target-of-target to be an uncomfortable and often-times very frustrating change because it brings your capabilities as a player below the par you've probably set for yourself in other video games, and consequently closer to worse players who either didn't utilize the additional UI features available to them, or didn't utilize them as well as they could have, but a couple certain things should be realized before people unload their frustration:

 

1) The drop in ability you're experiencing in your play is not unique- it's affected everyone else. If you can't handle the fact that it's bringing your level of performance closer to that of worse players, then you should probably reevaluate how you actually perform in the first place. If you are a legitimately good player (efficient keybindings, solid awareness, in-depth knowledge of role/class, sharp reflexes, intelligent response process to new obstacles), it will still show.

 

Note: I do understand that it is harder to evaluate DPS/Healing performance without meters, but like I said: if you are a legitimately a good player, it will still show, especially if you can do the math/show the math that your 'superior' rotation/specc. are based upon. If you can prove to your guild that you know how to min/max your performance on top of not standing-in-the-fire, it will be noted- if it's not, chances are you either aren't as good as you think you are, or you're not in a guild good/smart enough to recognize your ability and should consider playing with people more to your caliber.

 

2) With everyone on a level playing field, new content is much easier to tune. This should, I say should because if it doesn't it means that the BioWare dev team is not pulling their weight, make the release of new content a faster and more efficient process, and it should make the balancing of current pvp/content a faster and more efficient process as well.

 

Again on this note, the fact that there is no auto-attack also makes tuning/calculations easier and more efficient. It certainly makes my life easier in terms of doing the math for my class and my raid, and I can only assume that BioWare uses the same calculations to balance their encounters (You do tune your raids/itemization with math first and testing after, don't you!!!).

 

---

 

Finally, coming from playing WoW at the level I did (if it means anything, believe me, it was at a higher level than whatever anyone else here has come from) I can honestly say that I would prefer if the game stayed where it was in terms of AddOns, macros, etc. Although I would recommend that ToT and some form of Damage/Healing meters be added as I think that without either the game actually becomes less streamlined/simple, and subsequently tuning becomes more difficult.

 

Interesting perspective. Good post.

[alextrebek]

A "Radial button flag" for Casual vs Competative? when you sign up for a run?

 

Actually I like this idea a lot. People would probably abuse it (more casual players ticking the hardcore box thinking that it equates to being better or something), but it would probably serve a good purpose well.

[FuzzPop]

I burst out laughing in your face.

 

Someone who got World #9 Illidan + light of dawn + hallion 25hm (all when it was current) says it really, really isnt.

 

Go play Super Meat Boy or VVVVVVV, they're hard. Wow isn't. It's retardedly easy.

 

you should burst out laughing at yourself. If the top guilds are reported on MMO-Champion say one thing, and your "someone" friend says another -

 

I'd go with the professional raiders over your opinion. You're just another hater, hating for its own sake. "retardedly easy" yet you don't have a raid achieve to your name

[Velthome]

I didn't know people were "bad" for using a tool that made them better at something.

 

Huh.

[Tokeee]

This just goes to show that you have not a single clue what you are talking about.

 

Heroic Ragnaros was THE HARDEST encounter ever implemented into the game. You can't even deny that.

 

C'thun and M'uru would like to have a word with you.

[Lorne]

A mod-able UI was the thing I loved most about WoW. However, if they make a few additions that allow my group and I to gauge our own effectiveness, then I'll be happy. Damage and threat meters, and adding the combat log which was taken away in beta will do much to aid this issue.

 

I realize damage meters specifically are a touchy issue for people due to bad experiences in WoW. If i saw a group member of a class which I had knowledge of doing sub par damage that may cost us a fight, I'd make polite, simple suggestions to rotation or gear which would help them. Generally, it wasn't taken personally and lead to quick improvement which is always great to see.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Lorne

[Krazzo]

Newsflash! Addons are not in the game. The "complainers" are the pro-addon crew. It's a stretch to suggest the leave it as it is, or be careful crowd are complaining. Other way round, dude. Just sayin'

 

 

The people complaining are indeed the anti-addon crew. If you haven't seen the 14 threads made by the same people over and over again, then you are just plain blind.

 

The Pro-addon people are the ones debating with the whiners on how wrong you are.

 

Just Sayin...

[Torvalds]

With addons in place, you start paying attention to the numbers and your performance instead of just playing and enjoying the game. They drain the fun out of a form of entertainment. That is why casual players don't enjoy them.

 

meter-watchers who stand in fire and die are useless to a raid and just as bad as somebody who doesnt try to maximize dps

[Tokeee]

LOL'ing at the longwinded kid who was "i am higher than everyone else in WoW". You do realize there are World First players from every expansion posting on the forums correct?

[Kyriosgundam]

meter-watchers who stand in fire and die are useless to a raid and just as bad as somebody who doesnt try to maximize dps

 

Lets not forget that because TOR is a Star Wars game there are many players who have never even played an MMO of any kind before TOR. All because you see someone playing the game who is bad at doesnt mean that they are bad just because they are. I have run into many first time MMO players in TOR and they are bad only because this is their first time playing MMO's. So the next time you see a player who is bad it might be a good idea to keep your mouth shut because we are going to run into people like that no matter what thats just how the world is. Also if you bash a player for being bad and its their first time ever playing an MMO you might drive them away from a game they might actually enjoy as they get better at it. Also I am speaking as a person who has been in that position many times and been driven away from games because of it. So as I said earlier it might be a good idea to not say anything unless you know for a fact that a player is just plain bad because they are and not bad because its their first time with an MMO.

[Kelticfury]

Using Mods in MMOs and then calling others baddies for not using them is like using an aimbot in a FPS and calling someone bad for not getting a headshot with every bullet fired. It has nothing to do with a player min/maxing or player wanting to perform better, but has everything to do with a player using fabricated skill to overcome challenge and then labeling it a level of elitism. You do not need to be a good player to succeed with mods. You do have to be a good player to succeed without mods. It is really not hard to judge how well you are doing your role (whether it be damage, tanking, or healing)and then adjusting your performance with the tools already implemented in the game. The only baddies around are those reliant on third party add-ons to be efficient at succeeding in the game.

 

Exactly right Lobster. I am in complete agreement with you on this. I quit even trying to respond to these guys that say oh you must be a terribad if you don't like addons, when its they guy who can't play with out the crutch that is the terribad.

[Kelticfury]

Gearscore is already there, it's called item rating...

 

Deliberately obtuse much? They are talking about the addon that adds up your item ratings for anyone to see and scream terribad your gearscore sux!