Damage Meters

[Agonisis]

it seems you guys are arguing over a double edged sword.

 

1. If used for what they are supposed to be used for they are great.

2. that being said are never used correctly and always used to judge, say what you will you know i'm right cuz you've done, i know cuz i have done it.

3. meters create elitist ******s who will only do things based on your numbers.

 

Me and and my guild have cleared 16 N/H/NM ev and are working Jarg on Sorno NM without meters, guess we did it right..

 

i honestly like the the way its being done so you can min/max your rotation and only you can see it, cuz i really hated seeing recount flash through a raid or dungeon during raids or after and I was a HC raid healer since NAXX so i saw a lot of it. And it only gets worse once healers get involved.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Agonisis

[JamieKirby]

I never understand players that think that dps meters are needed, i mean, why not just play the game for the fun of playing the game instead of treating it like another freaking job.

 

Once they bring out dps meters, it will bring out all the elitists that think if you don't spec like this and do dps this high, you are kicked and you suck, that is what its like with wow, hence why i don't raid or do heroics on that game anymore, its just too much about being #1 on the list and nothing else.

 

The desire of fun is gone from wow since all these addons came out for the game and the same will be for this game too, if they brought out a dps meter.

[Rookss]

I never understand players that think that dps meters are needed, i mean, why not just play the game for the fun of playing the game instead of treating it like another freaking job.

My time is valuable. Wiping on HM and Nightmare mode encounters is not fun. I enjoy a challenge, and part of that challenge is pushing my toon to his mathematical limits. In order to do that, I need a quantitative basis for reviewing my performance. It's a pretty simple concept. Those that want to have fun get to play Story Mode, that's what it's there for.

 

Once they bring out dps meters, it will bring out all the elitists that think if you don't spec like this and do dps this high, you are kicked and you suck, that is what its like with wow, hence why i don't raid or do heroics on that game anymore, its just too much about being #1 on the list and nothing else.

This is not wow. Nobody is going to care if you are suboptimal in story mode. If you want to run HM and Nightmare, you need to pull your weight, not make 7 (or 15) other people carry you because you 'just want to have fun.' HM and Nightmare encounters are tuned to a point where people NEED to be performing to beat them. Wiping for 2 hours is not fun for anyone.

 

The desire of fun is gone from wow since all these addons came out for the game and the same will be for this game too, if they brought out a dps meter.

This isn't WoW, but you can't expect to beat end-game Hard Mode content without having to put any effort into your toons damage, healing, or tanking output. The gear doesn't make the content viable, the player hitting the buttons does. When 7 other people are depending on you, it's selfish to sit there and say "let's not have meter so people who don't feel like trying can hide among people who do, so they can still get HM and Nightmare loot!"

 

Saying you don't want meters is basically equivalent to saying you either don't want to do Hard Mode/Nightmare content, or you want to do it without pulling your weight.

[Agonisis]

I personally have died on Bonethrasher about 25 times, and I feel like my guild is never going to down him without a damage meter.

 

1. When people die, I can't always determine what killed them, which makes it hard to tell them what to do differently next time.

 

2. When we cc the adds, somebody keeps waking them up. I've got people whispering me that they saw so and so do such and such, but with all those spells flying around, who really knows? I've asked everyone to avoid using AoE on that boss, but I'm not confident that everyone knows what that means.

 

3. When we hit the enrage timer, I'd really like to see who was doing the lowest dps so I can give that person a pep talk about staying on the boss and dpsing while they're running. Or perhaps they're specced incorrectly or using a bad rotation. The fact is, as long as a person is firing something, you can't tell if they're doing fantastic dps or the swtor equivalent of auto-attack.

 

This is not a hard-core MMO. We have lots of people who've never raided before, and it shows. I have to explain things like CC, LoS, AoE, and yet there are enrage timers. Give me a break. Ironically the people arguing against combat logs and damage meters are the ones who will suffer for the lack of them. In the absence of actual data, I can only assume that the non-raiders are the ones screwing up and holding us back, and I'm therefore less likely to raid with them.

 

i'm sorry a bit off topic , but if you are, don't dps the cats that come out have your Ot pick em up and all dps the boss, works every time for us. And if you are its a mechanics issue not a numbers issues. Sorry back to ranting

[Erasimus]

it seems you guys are arguing over a double edged sword.

 

1. If used for what they are supposed to be used for they are great.

2. that being said are never used correctly and always used to judge, say what you will you know i'm right cuz you've done, i know cuz i have done it.

3. meters create elitist ******s who will only do things based on your numbers.

 

Me and and my guild have cleared 16 NM ev/kp without meters, guess we did it right..

 

i honestly like the the way its being done so you can min/max your rotation and only you can see it, cuz i really hated seeing recount flash through a raid or dungeon during raids or after and I was a HC raid healer since NAXX so i saw a lot of it. And it only gets worse once healers get involved.

 

If they make some of the content much harder than it is currently you'll end up with a range of guilds from "Hard Core server first" types to the casual "I just want to play with friends" types. The Hard Core guilds would most likely insist that you run with them for a tryout and submit your combat log. So what? If that isn't your cup of tea you wouldn't be applying to them anyway. If it is then that kind of competition is what you are looking for and you won't mind. There is room enough in this game to accomodate the different types of players.

 

If they don't provide more difficult content they will continue to lose those players. Fewer players means less profit and less incentive to provide additional "upgrades" including new content. Significantly more difficult Nightmare modes will mean having to "tweak" your rotations and analyze what you did right/wrong during the encounter.

 

My Republic guild is doing alright although we have a lot of players not logging a lot of time because the content is "too easy".

 

My Empire guild went from about 50-60 players (20-30 people on during peak in the beginning) to maybe two people including myself on during peak hours now. Reading the web-site the primary cause for them not playing/logging was a lack of challenging content both PvE and PvP (damage meters, UI customization, bugs, low PvP skill cap, also got honorable mention.) Some are going to give it a shot in 1.2, many are permanently gone to other games or coming games like TERA and GW2.

 

Player drain should concern all of us that want this game to be successful so we can continue to enjoy it for some time to come.

[Ganrax]

We CC the cats too and one time from my sloppy tab targeting I accidentally targeted a CC'd cat and placed a DoT. When the DoT broke the CC, do you know who it attacked? Me. If people are not attacking the cats and the CC last it's full duration it is going to attack the CCer, however if people are attacking it, it is going agro the person who attacked it. If someone breaks the CC, then just look to see who they attack.

 

And do you know who the cat is going to attack if the person that broke it starts getting healed(which on Bonethrasher is very likely)? That doesn't mean the healer broke CC.

 

On the actual subject, I don't see why people are still arguing about this, parsers are already setup for 1.2 so it's a pointless argument now. The devs obviously see the benefits of parsing combat logs, otherwise they wouldn't be adding them in.

[Codek]

 

What you are suggesting is a raid leader, while Main Tanking, or DPSing, or Healing, should also be watching every single member of their raid while also paying attention to boss mechanics, to figure out who is suboptimally spec'd and not following their rotation? You must be joking. DPS and Healing meters give end-game progression raiding groups the ability to evaluate THEMSELVES along with their raiders-in-crime.

 

I WILL concede the fact that people spamming meters in any chat is super annoying. But saying 'no meters' isn't the only option. I'd love to see a Ops Leader Panel which the ops leader can start/stop/reset and only share in the ops channel. Problem solved.

 

What I'm suggesting is for people want to take up the role of Raid Leader to also put forth the work of working with their raiders individually to ensure they know what is expected of them. I have seen far to many "leaders" look at damage meters and just say "your not doing the damage that xxxx is doing, learn to play your class". I expect raid leaders to know how to take a member into a less chaotic situation and view what they do to determine what is going on.

 

The concept of trying to figure out what an individual player is doing wrong during a raid fight is insane and should have been dealt way before entering it, that's what I view FP's are for. If you do not trust the people going into the OP's with you to know their role before learning a fight then I have no idea why they are there to begin with.

 

As for maximizing your own personal DPS. When the new logs are released, I expect my own personal play stay to change very little since I was fully capable of determining what my own optimized play style is already. I've tested my healers out on my companions in every way possible and my DPS characters have killed countless champion mobs to figure out what works best.

 

Hell, that's half the fun in optimizing your character, working to figure out what changed affect what abilities. Creating your own unique method on which you feel is the best possible way to play the character. If someone else has an idea that makes more sense then you can adapt it to improve your own. Damage meters simply destroy this aspect entirely to create some cookie cutter method that everyone tried to replicate simply because it does that 2 extra dps.

[JornFalm]

If you're one of those crying for DPS meters and the like, you must be horrible at the game yourself.

 

Me and every group I join does fine in any flashpoint, whether it be Normal, HM, or NM.

 

Baddies go back to WoW.

 

My time is valuable. Wiping on HM and Nightmare mode encounters is not fun. I enjoy a challenge, and part of that challenge is pushing my toon to his mathematical limits. In order to do that, I need a quantitative basis for reviewing my performance. It's a pretty simple concept. Those that want to have fun get to play Story Mode, that's what it's there for.

 

 

This is not wow. Nobody is going to care if you are suboptimal in story mode. If you want to run HM and Nightmare, you need to pull your weight, not make 7 (or 15) other people carry you because you 'just want to have fun.' HM and Nightmare encounters are tuned to a point where people NEED to be performing to beat them. Wiping for 2 hours is not fun for anyone.

 

 

This isn't WoW, but you can't expect to beat end-game Hard Mode content without having to put any effort into your toons damage, healing, or tanking output. The gear doesn't make the content viable, the player hitting the buttons does. When 7 other people are depending on you, it's selfish to sit there and say "let's not have meter so people who don't feel like trying can hide among people who do, so they can still get HM and Nightmare loot!"

 

Saying you don't want meters is basically equivalent to saying you either don't want to do Hard Mode/Nightmare content, or you want to do it without pulling your weight.

 

Don't do PUG's then.

Edited April 4, 2012 by JornFalm

[Rookss]

What I'm suggesting is for people want to take up the role of Raid Leader to also put forth the work of working with their raiders individually to ensure they know what is expected of them. I have seen far to many "leaders" look at damage meters and just say "your not doing the damage that xxxx is doing, learn to play your class". I expect raid leaders to know how to take a member into a less chaotic situation and view what they do to determine what is going on.

 

[/Quote]

 

I totally agree with this. But telling people what to do, and then having them actually do it is two very, very different things. You can coach them. You can teach them. You can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Raid Leaders need to be able to evaluate real-time performance. And honestly, anyone who wants to be 'good' at the game should want to do the same. For some, maximizing their output IS part of the fun. Not everyone likes it, and not everyone does it. But just because some don't want to, doesn't mean they should remove the ability for others to do so.

 

The concept of trying to figure out what an individual player is doing wrong during a raid fight is insane and should have been dealt way before entering it, that's what I view FP's are for. If you do not trust the people going into the OP's with you to know their role before learning a fight then I have no idea why they are there to begin with.

 

As for maximizing your own personal DPS. When the new logs are released, I expect my own personal play stay to change very little since I was fully capable of determining what my own optimized play style is already. I've tested my healers out on my companions in every way possible and my DPS characters have killed countless champion mobs to figure out what works best.

 

Hell, that's half the fun in optimizing your character, working to figure out what changed affect what abilities. Creating your own unique method on which you feel is the best possible way to play the character. If someone else has an idea that makes more sense then you can adapt it to improve your own. Damage meters simply destroy this aspect entirely to create some cookie cutter method that everyone tried to replicate simply because it does that 2 extra dps.

 

^^ I agreed with you up until you said damage meters will destroy the aspect of figuring out what abilities optimize your character. How do you know how well you are doing, if you don't have any sort of basis for performance? Watching the numbers float by on the screen above the boss's head? If you are paying attention to that, you are doing it wrong. Some sort of meter is required. Im happy with the offline meter. It makes it a little less convinent, but it's better than nothing.

 

Don't do PUG's then.

[/Quote]

 

I don't? Not sure what you are talking about. Having meters to evaluate A) your own performance and B) make sure your HM or Nightmare guild is maximizing it's potential has no bearing on if you are running pugs or not.

 

Saying you don't need meters because you do fine in your groups has nothing to do with needing meters. IF you feel you don't need meters for anything, then don't use them. That's a pretty simple concept. If you never have issues with anyone in your groups ever slacking, and/or you are ok with carrying the occasional noob, then that's good for you.

 

Some of us value our time, and want to make sure other people respect that time. (Im not referring to pugs, by the way. If you want to pug a HM, good luck with that come Dungeon Finder. You'll beg for meters then.)

Edited April 4, 2012 by Rookss

[JornFalm]

-SNIP- If you want to pug a HM, good luck with that come Dungeon Finder. You'll beg for meters then. -SNIP-

 

No, I won't. I don't like 'Easy Mode'.

[Freshless]

This one time I played every other multiplayer game EVER and it kept score. Sports keep score, FPS games track kills and assists, hell, Pong had a freaking scoreboard. Board games card games, chess, checkers. Almost every game ever created had a way of tracking who does better. Why the **** shouldn't we be able to keep score in this one, and that's all a damage meter is is a way to keep track of how a player is performing. I mean there are even trackers in PvP, IN THIS GAME, why not stick one in the end game content. Completely boggles my mind.

 

I cut my subscription off so I guess it doesn't matter anyway..

[NotDonnaReed]

i'm sorry a bit off topic , but if you are, don't dps the cats that come out have your Ot pick em up and all dps the boss, works every time for us. And if you are its a mechanics issue not a numbers issues. Sorry back to ranting

 

We're not dpsing the cats. We're attempting to cc them. And it is a numbers issue when we hit the enrage timer. It's also a numbers issue when I want to know who's dpsing the freaking cats.

 

I'm glad your guild is so pro at raiding that you don't need a dps meter. I'm glad you have members who understand the meaning of min/max. We only have three people like that, and they're becoming increasingly frustrated with everyone else. I'm tired of arguing about this. If they don't merge the servers in three weeks, the game will be kaput anyway.

[Agonisis]

We're not dpsing the cats. We're attempting to cc them. And it is a numbers issue when we hit the enrage timer. It's also a numbers issue when I want to know who's dpsing the freaking cats.

 

I'm glad your guild is so pro at raiding that you don't need a dps meter. I'm glad you have members who understand the meaning of min/max. We only have three people like that, and they're becoming increasingly frustrated with everyone else. I'm tired of arguing about this. If they don't merge the servers in three weeks, the game will be kaput anyway.

That was not really a flame, just some advice, cuz it was an issue for us..oh well forums and such

[NotDonnaReed]

That was not really a flame, just some advice, cuz it was an issue for us..oh well forums and such

 

I apologize if it sounded like I was mad at you. I really am happy for your guild. I just wish my guild was having the same success.

[Hxxr]

I think most people haven't realized this. When WoW FIRST came out there we no dmg meters at all. It in fact it had to come from a third party so if you want dmg meters, wait for someone to create it.

 

WoW also had no raiding content in the very beginning.

 

 

Really? You are either killing the damned boss and getting the job done or you aren't.

 

Once a damage meter is in, you HAVE to use it to stay competitive, and that is exactly why most don't want one.

 

And what's up if the raid is not killing the boss? The tank dies? Right now we can just tell all the healers to heal better and can't even help them to figure out how specifically. Or the boss enrages? There are 4 or 5 DPS and maybe only one or two isn't doing enough damage ... what choices to improve the overall performance do you make if 3 damage dealers are already at the maximum and no one wants to confess to slacking?

Call it a night? Wipe until someone goes broke? Kick all the damage dealers and get 4 new ones?

 

And no - you don't have to use damage meters if you don't want to. It's nice to have them and a majority in my raid won't need to improve based on any data those meters give us. But it makes things sometimes more clearer and one of the major problems without parsing is there's almost no way to tell which spec of your class is best ... choose the one that's most fun? What should I do if I think all of them are fun in their own way? Roll another class that has only one spec that's pleasing to play?

 

And then gee ... in order for the Dev's to know have their game be called boring and lame, they start designing their content to make it a challenge to those who have all these tools, making it even more necessary to have the tools.

 

*whisper* Story Mode *cough*

[Drykaas]

 

And what's up if the raid is not killing the boss? The tank dies? Right now we can just tell all the healers to heal better and can't even help them to figure out how specifically. Or the boss enrages? There are 4 or 5 DPS and maybe only one or two isn't doing enough damage ... what choices to improve the overall performance do you make if 3 damage dealers are already at the maximum and no one wants to confess to slacking?

Call it a night? Wipe until someone goes broke? Kick all the damage dealers and get 4 new ones?

 

And no - you don't have to use damage meters if you don't want to. It's nice to have them and a majority in my raid won't need to improve based on any data those meters give us. But it makes things sometimes more clearer and one of the major problems without parsing is there's almost no way to tell which spec of your class is best ... choose the one that's most fun? What should I do if I think all of them are fun in their own way? Roll another class that has only one spec that's pleasing to play?

 

 

 

*whisper* Story Mode *cough*

 

 

Everything here can be figured out with DMG meters, Raids are being completed successfully without them, PVP damage is being noted and people are making adjustments to thier builds. Best specs for PvP,PvE are being updated and changed with every little change the Devs make. To say without a DMG meter you can only choose a spec that blows your skirt up is silly. Sounds like DMG meter is a way for the game to slap you in the face and tell you how to play your char. Most people can figure out what to do to make thier char more viable, if they dont know you show them, if that doesnt work /ignore them. I would rather the Devs work on something else other than a bean counter.

[Bhaers]

Anyone that says they do not want any type of dps meters in the game is either very bad or very confused.

 

Dps/Heal meters - Seperate the bad players from the good.

 

It shows you...

who is active the most during a fight

who is taking the most damage and from what

who is healing the most

the abilities people are using and how often

etc...

 

The person who healed the most is NOT the best healer. The person who healed the wisest is.

 

Personally I hope that logs are created so that ACT http://advancedcombattracker.com/ or similar can be used for this purpose, such a thing is invaluable for developing your skill, HOWEVER, the idiot, elitest behavior of some people when they have that information is really truely obnoxious.

 

As was said commonly in the game many of these obnoxious types who posted their "recount" figures after every trash pull came from ... "Heroics Matter?"

 

There are three groups here.... The tools who abuse the tool, the carebares who have had their feelings hurt in the past by the tools and those who can see the use for their own personal use, never to be copy pasted outside a raid.

 

I'm in the third... bring on the logs so I can parse my performance with ACT, also bring on ridicule of anyone who posts them publically outside a raid environment. It's only through ridiculing the tools that we can stop them abusing the tool the way they do.

 

 

Edit: Seems it IS happening for ACT, which is wonderful.... ACT is easily the best parser.

 

So, someone is trying their hand at a SWTOR plugin for ACT. Only usable on the test server and a work-in-progress. http://t.co/3V7cIuvj 17 days ago

 

https://github.com/dafzal/SwtorAddon - working now for JUST your figure.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Bhaers

[Hxxr]

True, the parsers are solves some of the issues I stated before.

 

Nevertheless they are less than convenient if you want to look at the whole raid ... every one has to upload their log and they have to be pieced together.

I for one don't like that people die at Jarg and Sorno and we still haven't fully figured out the exact damage and timing of the one shot combo, so I could advise people how to use their cooldowns best. Right now we're still taking the path of preemptive CD popping for the plan D (the one hit last usually get's shafted if it's an Inquisitor or Agent) and Sniper bubble for the second one.

 

And of course anytime I tell somene they have to do better or try harder they tell me "But I'm doing everything perfectly!" even if I can they're slacking my hands are tied and I have little arguments without proof. And I don't want to evaluate anything after the raid, I want to do it during the raid to pep talk some individuals into not eating a sandwich while playing or whatever they're focusing on besides playing.

[NotDonnaReed]

Everything here can be figured out with DMG meters, Raids are being completed successfully without them, PVP damage is being noted and people are making adjustments to thier builds.

 

Wrong. Only the good people are doing this. The bad people don't even know they're bad.

[Erasimus]

No, I won't. I don't like 'Easy Mode'.

 

There is a significant difference between "Easy Mode" and flying blind. DBM is easy mode, it tells you when to move, when to click, etc. You don't even have to look to see if you are standing in the bad, it will yell at you "Run away little girl".

 

Damage meters on the other hand can keep you from flying in the blind. But not if they only record damage. To be useful the combat log and the damage meters based on them need to help you understand what caused the issue.

 

Missed Interrupts?

Standing in the Bad when I thought I was clear?

Did I inadvertently pull aggro, hit a CC'd mob, etc?

 

And a host of other things that could have gone wrong in either a PvP or PvE encounter. Now some of these I can see or notice during a fight or encounter. But when things get hectic it is difficult to keep track of everything I'm doing never mind the people around me. It is nice to be able to go back and analyze what you or your group may have done wrong so you can adjust your tactics/rotation etc.

 

Plus some of us just enjoy doing the analysis, does that make us "bads"? I don't consider people that don't enjoy doing the analysis bad so why would someone call me a bad just because I do?

 

Are sports coaches bad because they review films of their teams to see what they can improve?

 

For many the competitive part of MMOs is the enjoyable part. For these people analysis tools are part of that enjoyment.

 

Are their jerks in this and any game? Of course, but if you think that a lack of real combatlog/damage meters will decrease the number of jerks or limit their negative interactions with other players you are sadly mistaken.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Erasimus

[LightShad]

All bosses on Heroic and Nightmare have enrage timers, yet you provide no combat log, or damage meters? How does a raid leader evaluate the raid? Has there been a response to this that I couldn't find or are they staying in the dark about this obvious miss?

 

Thanks.

 

Eh you missed something yourself. It is pretty easy to evaulate the raid by simply checking how far you get before he enrages.

 

On a sidenote i think they should ban all strategy guides for bosses from the internet

[Erasimus]

Eh you missed something yourself. It is pretty easy to evaulate the raid by simply checking how far you get before he enrages.

 

On a sidenote i think they should ban all strategy guides for bosses from the internet

 

Now not really flaming, but you do realize that could easily be construed as being as elitist as anything posted in this thread right?

 

Translation - "If you can't figure out the strategy on your own you shouldn't be allowed to see the fights."

 

Of course there isn't anyway to ban the strategies, but even if there was it would probably backfire. Most MMOs these days want everyone to be able to see the fights. So, if there were no strategy postings they'd just nerf the encounters to the point they wouldn't even fun for those looking for a challenge, wait we are almost there already

Edited April 5, 2012 by Erasimus

[EvilBoots]

The better thing to ask for is a combat log, which it certainly already on BioWare's priority list. "Damage meter" riles up the casual crowd who think they're going to get kicked from their guild for not being the best DPS ever.

 

 

If you are running a 15man flashpoint/op you are not casual. Nobody will kick you from a 4man flashpoint because there arent enough people online to run stuff on servers. I will never kick a dps out because he is doing half my damage...IF HE IS TRYING. But if hes halfassing it, and doesnt take my advice, i will kick him, dmge meter or not. I wont get pissed at someone whose lower geared and less dps as long as he is trying. thats just because i'm a normal human being. You must have played with too much elitists in wow.

Edited April 5, 2012 by EvilBoots

[EvilBoots]

It seems that the people who are against dmge meters are all referring to world of warcraft. i always had a damage meter running for myself in wow, to see if i am doing good, to see if the dps in my group is doing their part. If they are not i tell them to do something about it, and usually it would increase. The ones who are against damage meters are the ones who were either *****ed at for not having the top 5 in raids, or didnt care enough to farm for heroic runs. If you are in a heroic run, you are expected to be prepared for it, not just run it for ....FUN. If you want fun, go run flashpoints with 3 others, nobody cares about dps there. If you are in a nightmare mode or heroic, yeah you need to change plans, fix the lowest dps, help them out. If they dont get their **** together by 3 or 4 heroics, there is no reason to keep them. Peoples time is precious.

[TheRealCandyMan]

It seems that the people who are against dmge meters are all referring to world of warcraft. i always had a damage meter running for myself in wow, to see if i am doing good, to see if the dps in my group is doing their part. If they are not i tell them to do something about it, and usually it would increase. The ones who are against damage meters are the ones who were either *****ed at for not having the top 5 in raids, or didnt care enough to farm for heroic runs. If you are in a heroic run, you are expected to be prepared for it, not just run it for ....FUN. If you want fun, go run flashpoints with 3 others, nobody cares about dps there. If you are in a nightmare mode or heroic, yeah you need to change plans, fix the lowest dps, help them out. If they dont get their **** together by 3 or 4 heroics, there is no reason to keep them. Peoples time is precious.

 

Such an elitist....