Damage Meters

[Rattius]

...We're* stuck on an island. Without some type of combat log and ability to examine that log in detail, we're* surviving on coconuts and rain water. That may be fine for you, but not for us..

 

So since you don't have a dps meter / parser at your disposal now, then does that mean you're not clearing the currently available content?

 

If you are, would having a meter somehow just make it more fun? ~ Devil's Advocate

 

 

 

Look, I wasn't arguing your point. All I was pointing-out was simply that if we're going to needlessly continue to kick this dead horse, we should at least be honest and accurate with our language and without embellishing in an attempt to garner support or sympathy for our position.

 

Oh, in case you missed it, I'm looking forward to my parser. I don't want hate meters or bots of any kind, but I do like to look at my raid encounter details.

[Anuniaki]

Listen, ive played panda for a few years , till it became so **** i could not take it aymore ..

Ive been in many raids , with people *********** up , standing in **** because they were too bizzy looking at their ****in dps meters !

And as a healer i did not like that ...

I hear the sound of a thousand whines , people calling other players noobs because they did not top the list , common , bunch of frickin kids get ur act together !

 

Im sure they will put in a agro meter , if you want more goback to playing your stupid panda game !

Edited January 16, 2012 by Anuniaki

[DarthTorne]

So since you don't have a dps meter / parser at your disposal now, then does that mean you're not clearing the currently available content?

 

If you are, would having a meter somehow just make it more fun? ~ Devil's Advocate

 

No, I'm not clearing the currently available content - but that has nothing to do with not having one currently. I'm not because I needed to take a break from the game due to RL issues.

 

Yes, yes it would make it much more fun for me. I truly enjoy min/maxing in every way possible.

 

Oh, in case you missed it, I'm looking forward to my parser. I don't want hate meters or bots of any kind, but I do like to look at my raid encounter details.

 

No I caught that - and I enjoy parsers as well along with damage meters. I like to use every tool available for my *own* enjoyment. Many, many raiders I've had the pleasure to know for the last decade-ish I've played MMO's are exactly the same. Real-time monitoring is just as useful as post-examination when available to us.

 

EDIT - Yeah, I'll agree there are a bunch of idiots that don't pay attention to the fire because they're too busy stroking their epeen. I've also seen them invited less and less or not at all again if they kept doing so. There's also very many that can look at more than one spot on the screen and be aware of everything.

Edited January 16, 2012 by DarthTorne

[Auronamij]

Listen, ive played panda for a few years , till it became so **** i could not take it aymore ..

Ive been in many raids , with people *********** up , standing in **** because they were too bizzy looking at their ****in dps meters !

And as a healer i did not like that ...

I hear the sound of a thousand whines , people calling other players noobs because they did not top the list , common , bunch of frickin kids get ur act together !

 

Im sure they will put in a agro meter , if you want more goback to playing your stupid panda game !

 

That's a pretty terrible attitude. Do you really want an entire group of people to leave the game over a damage meter? You're basically saying, "I don't like the way you play, I don't want you to have the things you want, what I really want is for you to leave so Bioware will have less money to continue to develop this game." You're going out of your way to get people to quit, when what you should be begging for is people to stay.

 

I'll give you some mildly relevant anecdotal evidence: The guild that I'm in has been gaming together for almost a decade, we tend to move together as a group and we were a little bored of "Pandas" as you call it. We came to SWToR hoping it would be a slightly more entertaining experience than Rift, and to begin with, it was. Once we hit level cap, we realized some of the limitations of the current game, and between bugs and things missing from the game completely, we've kind of stopped playing with much fervor waiting to see where Bioware takes this game. We are the types of gamers that will stick around for a very long time, all professional level people who will dump money into a game if we think it will go somewhere. But as of right now, even though none of us needs the extra 15 bucks a month, we're 75% sure that if enough things don't change we will end up quitting in the next few months. You can say whatever you want about "Pandas" but frankly we played that game for 7 years, and we only really left it once, and it had nothing to do with its ui.

 

To make this anecdotal wall a little longer, I'll point out the 3 biggest flaws we see in the game, and this is as an entire group of people who play together and completely ignore almost everyone else in the game. 1) Extremely buggy end game content 2) Lack of customizable ui, and 3) Lack of combat log/parsing. We don't care about anyone else, we want combat logs for ourselves. Sometimes you die and you're too busy trying to see the cooldown on some ability that's on your left bar and aren't quite sure what the hell laser actually shot you. It would be nice to know what that was. We would like to know if our rotations are working correctly or if they need to be refined. We do not care about telling strangers they are bad or good, in fact as I mentioned, we generally just ignore everyone else.

 

You can pretend that there are no other people like us out there, but even outside of my guild I know hundreds of others just like me, and they're in the same boat. If the game does not change, we will go back to the other game, and take a substantial amount of revenue with us. We aren't holding anyone hostage, we're putting a value on our own time and money.

 

I'd like to also point out that your hypocritical post was rather amusing.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Auronamij

[Rattius]

@ Darthtorn - Can we then agree that the design of any forthcoming content will be predicated on the use of any-and-all available mods / add-ons / meters / tools?

 

PARADOXICAL INFINITE RAID CONTENT DESIGN LOOP

 

10: Release raid content

20: Design and release meters / mods / add-ons

30: GOTO 1000

 

[sub 1000]

1010: PUG faceroll previously designed content

1020: QQ cuz there's now no way for me to distinguish myself and my very dedicated and hardworking guild from a facerolling PUG

1030: In an effort to recapture the separation and distinction between said guild and said facerolling PUG, design and release harder raid content that requires "synchronized swimming routines" that can only be accomplished with the use of meters / tools / mods

1040: Design and release meters / tools to "help" with the current difficultly raid content

1050: GOTO 1010

[End Sub 1000]

 

With or without the tools, it's the same difficulty. In one scenario, you rely more on skill, gut, and feel, where the other encourages reliance upon sounds, lights, graphs, numbers, etc.

 

They're simply different styles of play. One isn't "better" or "worse" than the other, they're just different. I think a lot of this just comes down to the fact that many people from a 'different game" are used to rolling a certain way, and people in general don't like change.

 

If they add them, I'll still play. If they don't, I'll still play.

[DarthTorne]

The QQ from "another game" as you put it, is a very vocal minority. Someone is always going to complain about a game being too easy/hard based off another player's experience. However, these same tools existed before there were many complaints about "another game" being too easy. The content got split into difficulties - one that was easier for random people to get together and complete, and one that wasn't. Before the split, the "other game" was the latter. Some content never got seen by a large majority. Now it is, and that bothers a small minority.

 

Basing content off the tools available is not what is done. If that was the case, there would be no visual/audio notifications as there are. The mods made available only make it simpler to get tunnel vision. Yet even with that, there are a lot of players that still fail at watching for indicators made by mods. Skilled players will still stand out, that won't change.

 

The truth is, I could care less if they made the game able to be modded or not. What I want is actual evidence and proof, not gut instincts, about whether I am doing well with my class or not. People are guessing and making wild assumptions based off little to no info. I can't wait for combat logs. A real-time damage meter would be even better, whether provided by the UI or an external mod.

[Rattius]

The QQ from "another game" as you put it, is a very vocal minority. Someone is always going to complain about a game being too easy/hard based off another player's experience. However, these same tools existed before there were many complaints about "another game" being too easy. The content got split into difficulties - one that was easier for random people to get together and complete, and one that wasn't. Before the split, the "other game" was the latter. Some content never got seen by a large majority. Now it is, and that bothers a small minority.

 

Basing content off the tools available is not what is done. If that was the case, there would be no visual/audio notifications as there are. The mods made available only make it simpler to get tunnel vision. Yet even with that, there are a lot of players that still fail at watching for indicators made by mods. Skilled players will still stand out, that won't change.

 

The truth is, I could care less if they made the game able to be modded or not. What I want is actual evidence and proof, not gut instincts, about whether I am doing well with my class or not. People are guessing and making wild assumptions based off little to no info. I can't wait for combat logs. A real-time damage meter would be even better, whether provided by the UI or an external mod.

 

Obviously, I wasn't there to witness the historical progression of the relationship between mods/add-ons and raid difficulties in the other game, but I have read statements made by others who were there that my quick-n-dirty little code outline is the basic premise of how it has unfolded and it sounds plausible enough to me.

 

That being said, I think we probably agree more than we disagree.

 

I would like to see: A fully customizable UI that includes scaling, a combat log.

 

I don't demand or require: Threat meters, mouseover capability, etc...

 

I'll continue to play: Whether or not they add these things.

 

Although I would continue to play and would likely even even use them(due to expectations), I just fundamentally don't like the idea of dynamic/real-time combat crutches or as some might call them, "idiot lights."

[DarthTorne]

Obviously, I wasn't there to witness the historical progression of the relationship between mods/add-ons and raid difficulties in the other game, but I have read statements made by others who were there that my quick-n-dirty little code outline is the basic premise of how it has unfolded and it sounds plausible enough to me.

 

For many years that has been true. I played since launch, and I can tell you it wasn't always. The majority of the player base never saw the top-end raids, most would only get to the entry-level ones.

 

That being said, I think we probably agree more than we disagree.

 

I would like to see: A fully customizable UI that includes scaling, a combat log.

 

I don't demand or require: Threat meters, mouseover capability, etc...

 

I'll continue to play: Whether or not they add these things.

 

I can agree there. Almost exactly really.

 

Although I would continue to play and would likely even even use them(due to expectations), I just fundamentally don't like the idea of dynamic/real-time combat crutches or as some might call them, "idiot lights."

 

I'd be perfectly fine without a mod that tells me to **** of the fire. I pay enough attention to what I'm doing. Most alerts I'd turn off or ignore. Unfortunately you can't always get a large group that can. Smaller size end-game content is amazing, they've started off at least not requiring an obscene amount of people. What irks me is that even with these tools, people still stand in the fire. Another topic altogether though.

[Mltdwn]

Am I the only one who remembers the days before WoW when there was no meters of any kind in our games, where you were simply expected to know your class, and people played their hearts out? I mean seriously there is not one single encounter in this game even close to the difficulties of raids of old (talking EQ plane of fear runs and the like) and you guys are such poor players that you need dps meters to be able to figure out what went wrong and why? I have done EV and all of the FPs on HM and I have to say every time we've wiped, hit an enrage timer, whatever we have known exactly why and had ideas on how to improve... If you guys can't do that simply by paying attention then you need some serious help.

[MagnitudeZero]

Having done Soa and Bonethrasher both HM we know in our guild that we have neither issues with healing or damage or our abilty to avoid damage.

 

That being said, we all still want a dps meter, I know our dps is still struggling to find out which spec they find better and more comfortable to play for each encounter, it seems every night the dps is in a different spec trying something else out, but ultimately they can never know what is the more effective, at least not without great respec costs and purposeful wipes to see how long it's taking to burn through each boss/phase, which is just a lengthy and painful version of having a dps meter, but without any actual detail as to what abilitiy is doing what and for how much.

 

I know many people seemingly get hurt by the idea that someone else might do more dps than them and therefore are against any meters "lest they rub it in my face", but meters are the only way to really improve and compare two different specs in an actual raid.

 

We wiped for 30+ hours on Soa, partly due to bugs, and partly because we felt we just weren't getting the right raid synergy, and tried various dps setups, eventually downing him with 3 gunslingers a scoundrel and a commando. Regardless of dps meters, our sentinel got bumped in favour of ranged, we don't know how much dps he did, or how much anyone did, but he still lost his raid spot.

 

But having a dps meter wouldn't make the boss any easier, it would just make him easier to analyse, the same level of cooperation and tactics and dps would be needed, we'd just be able to pinpoint various downfalls.

[WimploMartin]

i think damage meters will help alot of players become better players + yes there will be elitists that will kick people out of groups and stuff but for raids i think a add on for meters will be very beneficial

 

i realy want to see what BIOWARE has to say about damage meters

[pEEtrsCZ]

All bosses on Heroic and Nightmare have enrage timers, yet you provide no combat log, or damage meters? How does a raid leader evaluate the raid? Has there been a response to this that I couldn't find or are they staying in the dark about this obvious miss?

 

Thanks.

 

LoL, what?

 

How about some skill? Perhaps leader should pay attention to group? No? How about one click macro so you can go watch your meters and not pay attention to what's happening on the screen? Have you ever been on Raid? I used to raid quite a lot (not in WoW though) and we never felt we need some sort of this crap ... you know, we play for fun, not because we want watch some stupid meter.

 

Well Ok, I kinda agree that combat log might be useful, but only if you'll be able to put it somewhere else then rest of chats, because would be nice to see what abilities triggered or what CC just landed on me etc

[ademnus]

damage meters are just for egotism.

 

Before we ever see a damage meter, id rather see a threat meter. If you arent asking for that first, you arent serious about it, its just for epeen.

[flowqz]

damage meters are just for egotism.

 

Before we ever see a damage meter, id rather see a threat meter. If you arent asking for that first, you arent serious about it, its just for epeen.

 

or its for optimising dps/rotations or setups

 

i dont need threat meters cause enrage timers are the issue. i cant make dps stops so i dont need a threat meter.

Edited January 17, 2012 by flowqz

[nite_shade]

THe only useful Addons for this game are a DBM and possibly an HealBot.

 

DMG Meters just give rise to elite kids... they'll be asking for Gear Score next, or you see in chat... 'Looking for DPS/TANK/HEALZOR... Purple/Orange Item plazors only plz.... pew pew.. tanx.. /w me'

 

Nuff said

[Corvenik]

ok im a noob and idk if its the same thing , but if you want to find out how much damage you do a hit or what not doesnt the fly text tell you how much damage you are doing and healing as well those are numbers you can see right? so cant u be like well im doing about 2k a hit with this move cant you just ask after how much the guy next to you was doing? or i mean isnt that how it used to be done back in the days xD?

[nite_shade]

ok im a noob and idk if its the same thing , but if you want to find out how much damage you do a hit or what not doesnt the fly text tell you how much damage you are doing and healing as well those are numbers you can see right? so cant u be like well im doing about 2k a hit with this move cant you just ask after how much the guy next to you was doing? or i mean isnt that how it used to be done back in the days xD?

 

It's not for themselves, it's so they can judge/ridicule other players.. it's a wow elitism/egotystical thing......

 

I personally hope, many things from WoW are NOT introduced into this game.. or it's GW2 for me

[flowqz]

ok im a noob and idk if its the same thing , but if you want to find out how much damage you do a hit or what not doesnt the fly text tell you how much damage you are doing and healing as well those are numbers you can see right? so cant u be like well im doing about 2k a hit with this move cant you just ask after how much the guy next to you was doing? or i mean isnt that how it used to be done back in the days xD?

 

there are so many numbers over the head of the boss i just cant sit down and note every number to calculate my dps and how it would increase changing 1priority in the rotation. those thiings may be not important for some casual players, but i really want to optimise my dps, should i feel bad now?

[buttski]

damage meters will come and the trash players will be sorted out.

[WeapX]

I think most people haven't realized this. When WoW FIRST came out there we no dmg meters at all. It in fact it had to come from a third party so if you want dmg meters, wait for someone to create it.

[nite_shade]

there are so many numbers over the head of the boss i just cant sit down and note every number to calculate my dps and how it would increase changing 1priority in the rotation. those thiings may be not important for some casual players, but i really want to optimise my dps, should i feel bad now?

 

I think personally, as long as you and your group are being kept alive and the fights going well, than ALL is well....

 

Ahh, the fun of the game... reminds me of early WoW and BWL and MC.... epic fights, but we all survived'ish... then they made it a pew pew game and ruined it... i hate those Quick runs through instances... I feel like have a good sesh, when I've had a epic battle, and not cheated after a quick 30 min run through.

 

But seriously, just go with it and do your job.. that to me is more important.

[GengisKahn]

I personally like the fact that the real numbers are hidden, because as soon as real numbers are published and parsed the game turns into a FOTM with regular 'balance' nerfs from community outcry. It will get there eventually anyway, but the logs will get us there faster.

 

Ahh, again the ignorance is a bless argument. The game is better because we dont know how crappy our class is in comparison to others, and the game will be worst when we know such things.

 

Great, well, i'm not a mediocre guy that is confort being ignorant so nothing bothers him.

 

I prefer to know things, i prefer to measure things, if you are confort in ignorance, then good for you, the world needs both kind of people.

[Unununun]

Without a working DPS/Healing meter you can't run a serious guild. it's as simple as that.

[nite_shade]

Ahh, again the ignorance is a bless argument. The game is better because we dont know how crappy our class is in comparison to others, and the game will be worst when we know such things.

 

Great, well, i'm not a mediocre guy that is confort being ignorant so nothing bothers him.

 

I prefer to know things, i prefer to measure things, if you are confort in ignorance, then good for you, the world needs both kind of people.

 

Errrmmmm, yeah, kind of.. ermm, ok.... i think... 'Scratches head' I hated quantum physics, perhaps Dr Brian Cox could enlighten us on your response?

[flowqz]

I think personally, as long as you and your group are being kept alive and the fights going well, than ALL is well....

 

Ahh, the fun of the game... reminds me of early WoW and BWL and MC.... epic fights, but we all survived'ish... then they made it a pew pew game and ruined it... i hate those Quick runs through instances... I feel like have a good sesh, when I've had a epic battle, and not cheated after a quick 30 min run through.

 

But seriously, just go with it and do your job.. that to me is more important.

 

i wont be alive and the fight isnt going well if the enrage timer wipes my group. its as simple as that.