Damage Meters

[Foenixz]

I could not agree more, as someone who raid leads - this is by far my largest gripe.

 

LOL what the UI bugging in the middle of fights is good by you? How about random deaths?

 

You have extremely misplaced priorities when it comes to gaming.

[talongaillard]

Either put the meters in the game, or remove enrage timers based on how much damage has been done.

 

If you want a low-key game where you can do less pew pew and enjoy using non-optimized rotations/cycles/specs/gear, fine. But don't punish entire raids by not allowing people to maximize their rotations and specs and gear and their raid compositions so that a large group of people can down a boss because two people decide they'd rather wear RP gear, be in a pvp-oriented spec, and not learn how to push the damage everyone needs in order to down content.

 

I don't care if there are no meters and the rage timers are removed and the fights end up being longer, but I dislike being forced to push more damage per second to down content and having no reasonably accurate tool to use to help do that and become a better class player.

[Manv]

This is not about fine tuning rotations or anything. Honestly. If we're hitting enrage timers, we NEED to know WHO is underperforming and WHO needs to be replaced so we can actually DOWN the boss. So far there is absolutely no way to check that unless you have your whole guild go to Infernal Council encounter with a timer, keep resetting it and record kill times >_> I can see how it doesn't matter for people doing normal or even hard modes, but for Nightmare, it's necessary unless you play with people who you KNOW are good (like old WoW guildmates or whatnot), which is not the case most of the time.

 

Not giving us a combat log makes about as much sense as releasing new content without fixing game breaking bugs in the old one. I mean, which serious company would even consider doing something like that?

 

...oh wait.

[Bloedigsidus]

I'm a casual player (never got all tied up in hardcore WoW raiding, etc) and I can see both sides of this one.

 

For a casual player, a dps meter would be nice, just to see how your stacking up and feedback on where you could do better.

 

However, it also puts the Uber stats pressure on all of us casual players. In WoW for instance, you could have decent gear (heroic type gear) and a decent rotation, but unless you had raid gear and did nothing but read and learn optimum rotations for each situation, then you started to be kicked from even pubs. Pubs became big stress just to stay in because raiders wanted to set world speed records and what not.

 

Now flame away and tell me how it's all my fault for being a bad player, but the fact is I am a decent to good casual player. Take away the 10-20% of uber raiders from the population in any MMO and your left with a huge group of casual players, and these are the folks that will most likely see a very negative side of any type of metering.

 

One other issue that seems more relevant in this game is the fact that most classes are a hybrid of Tank/DPS or Healer/DPS. I can do a world of good in a run with going mostly heals, but then doing some good DoT here and there. Or, I can also save the day with lower DPS output than others, but then save the entire group repeatedly with heals.

 

I do fear that with either add ons or BW damage meters, many of us Casual players will call it quits before long because of the pressure to be tops in DPS even on pub runs.

 

/start flaming

[Darth_Victus]

The problem I can see coming from adding damage meters, is that the self proclaimed "hard core" will use it to belittle other players for not doing enough DPS and so on.

 

I say self proclaimed, because REAL hard core and elite players will help a player who is struggling or having some issues, so long as that player is willing to learn.

[Greyspectre]

I would like damage meters so I can work out the more sublte aspects of my rotation as well as work out what we are doing wrong on some fights (like last boss of BP) to not get the enrage timer.

[Vechna]

LEt me break this down for you, "Hardcores" will belittle players regardless of addons, and casuals will still complain about "hardcores" regardless of addons.

 

Let addon be put in game it will change nothing except allow the Devs to work on others things and not have to make ingame options to replace player made addons like damage meters.

[Sajmn]

for those who mean end-game seriously, is some kind of analyst tool a must.

 

DMG metter is one of them...

 

Was leading many raids in wow and now in swtor begining with some EV and KP guild run, sometimes we dont have enough dps for boss, coz of some green or bad playing ppl. in 8man you can somehow manage it, check gear, ask for rotation etc, but in 16man its nearly imposible as you have around 10 dps, 4 healers to manage etc.

 

dont understand argument, when you dont kill boss, you dont have gear for it.

 

in past there is many and many situation when changing dps roles, (like go for ads, you go for single, you move there instead of it), changing who heal what, coz of personal skill, changing positioning, as you realize your dpss are much ranged oriented, etc, solve many problems, and you can finish encounter, based on DPS/heal metter analysis.

 

again, who never edn-game raided dont understand such a advantage of DPS metter. that guy who post dps metter in raid or guild chat without apropriate reasone get gkick warning !!

 

my vote definitely for! and combat log of course, seems developers never played end-game if they dont put it in game damn

[Sehte]

Monitoring damage is certainly needed, but just as important is figuring out how you died. Did lightning form an orb kill me? Or was it Soa's normal attack? Or was it an exploding orb? Not really anyway to tell right now, or to monitor what amount of dmg I'm taking. No combat log is just completely nonsensical and there is no good reason to include "hard" and "nightmare" modes and then claim you want to cater only to the casual.

[SpaceJ]

Look, if you guys are so lazy and inattentive that you need an add-on to tell you what I can already see with my two eyes plain as day then sure put a DPS/Heal meter into the game. I'm all for making the game easier for those with disabilities such as blindness.

 

I haven't come across a situation where I needed a DPS meter or a battle log to tell me what was wrong. It's called situational awareness. Is the DPS even near the boss? Do you see them shooting? Are they standing in a fire? These are things you can see happening. I can definately tell when the tank isn't doing their job, or the healer isn't doing theirs, or the DPS isn't doing theirs. It's as plain as day when the bosses HP doesn't move, or the tank loses aggro, or if the healer is slacking. I can even tell if the boss is enraged by their buff bar.

 

Will meters make the game easier? Yeah, probably.

 

Are they needed? Not in the slightest.

 

Know how I can tell that my DPS rotation is working well? Things die. Quickly. Worst case scenario for you min/maxers is that you roll a class and get out a stop watch. Maybe even make some friends and work things out with the duel system.The numbers pop on your screen. Do the math. The real thing you're complaining about is you have to do the math yourself, and you can't see everyone elses math.

 

Go play Excel somewhere else. ^_^

 

God forbid you ever need to talk to anyone in your group. After all, those other fail loser dead weights you play with would never answer a question straight. Only you, the pro-master DPS/Heal Monitor Savior can draw conclusions and answer questions. After all, everyone else in the game is a n00b liar.

 

(Yes, this post is half-troll. It's also 100% true.)

Edited January 16, 2012 by SpaceJ

[Prvtdonut]

Look, if you guys are so lazy and inattentive that you need an add-on to tell you what I can already see with my two eyes plain as day then sure put a DPS/Heal meter into the game. I'm all for making the game easier for those with disabilities such as blindness.

 

I haven't come across a situation where I needed a DPS meter or a battle log to tell me what was wrong. It's called situational awareness. Is the DPS even near the boss? Do you see them shooting? Are they standing in a fire? These are things you can see happening. I can definately tell when the tank isn't doing their job, or the healer isn't doing theirs, or the DPS isn't doing theirs. It's as plain as day when the bosses HP doesn't move, or the tank loses aggro, or if the healer is slacking. I can even tell if thoe boss is enraged by their buff bar.

 

Will meters make the game easier? Yeah, probably.

 

Are they needed? Not in the slightest.

 

Know how I can tell that my DPS rotation is working well? Things die. Quickly. Worst case scenario for you min/maxers is that you roll a class and get out a stop watch. Maybe even make some friends and work things out with the duel system.The numbers pop on your screen. Do the math. The real thing you're complaining about is you have to do the math yourself, and you can't see everyone elses math.

 

Go play Excel somewhere else. ^_^

 

God forbid you ever need to talk to anyone in your group. After all, those other fail loser dead weights you play with would never answer a question straight. Only you, the pro-master DPS/Heal Monitor Savior can draw conclusions and answer questions. After all, everyone else in the game is a n00b liar.

 

(Yes, this post is half-troll. It's also 100% true.)

 

 

Thanks for adding such a well informed opinion to this post. Even if you are "trolling" at least have the common decency to back up a point with facts instead of random observations.

 

This idea that combat logs/damage meters are "handholding", is so asinine. A combat log will not tell you how to play your class. You as a player are still required to adjust your strategy. A combat log will also identify what causes deaths, something that can't accurately be tracked in the middle of a hectic encounter.

 

For a lesser example, I am a healer, and was healing a guild run of Hard Mode False Emperor. On the first boss (with the ship) I observed a lot of people getting hit by the rocket strike that you can avoid by staying out of the red targeting reticule. They said they were out of the range of the ability, but on my screen they were in it completely. With how the game can be buggy at times, I could not accurately tell if that was what had happened. With a combat log, I could look in and see if the ability did damage them and make sure that we were being careful to stay out of it.

[GengisKahn]

Combat logs and ui customizations are something that they must gives us. From there, damage meters would be a nice adition.

[Whatsalightsaver]

I would love Damage Meter's for personal use but at the sametime I'm hoping Damage Meters dont make it to the game, not everyone is going to play at top skill even with dmg meters or w/e and with Damage Meters others use those to call out people and make fun of them, I hate being in a group and having to listen to someone complain about another persons DPS just being Terrible... we all play this game to have fun... and Dmg Meters alot of time are abused

 

True, recount can be abused and often is. However a lot of good comes with it too. There's no way to optimize your raid for the hardest content unless you can tell how people are performing. Not everyone has to go destroy Nightmare or whatever but for those that want to it's an invaluable tool.

 

Dps meters are also a sense of progression/accomplishment/satisfaction for some. I know I have more fun when I'm smashing the meters. If a tank dies in a flashpoint, I get satisfaction being next on the threat list (plus I get to do what I call "hero mode" in which I take over a role I didn't come to do and allow us to succeed).

 

I dunno, there are pros and cons, but I'd expect meters to be implemented at the very least as a curse add on.

[master_axe]

Is it not common sense that this game will never blossom if there are no damage meters?

 

Why do we have to argue this? It won't wither and die, it is SW after all, but it will not grow.

 

 

There are many solutions to whatever beef you may have, but if SWTOR does not receive a damage and heal meter, my friends and I are out the door. For those who think "good riddance", I pity you for not having had the chance to play with us.

[Perkunas]

It's a fool's stance to be against damage meters when all the encounters have a BLOODY ENRAGE TIMER. If you really want a game where min/max is unimportant you need to remove enrage timers and generally nerf raiding into what it is currently in Warcraft with Looking for Raid.

[codaking]

Lets suppose damage meters are available right now. How would you use them to actually make decisions? Assuming their main purpose is for EV lets go through the boss fights and see how effective they actually are.

 

Annihilation Droid - Okay I can see a benefit for having meters in this fight but it is totally doable without them so that kind of voids their use.

 

Gharj - Again doable without meters.

 

Pillars - I don't see damage meters making any difference in this encounter what so ever.

 

Council - No need for meters here at all as you can see who finishes their duel early and who does not.

 

Soa - This is were it gets tricky. Meters would be very helpful here BUT they would have to take into account game mechanics. It is very likely that your best healer and DPS will either get thrown around the room or mind trapped more than your worst healer and DPS so the meters will actually favor your mediocre and bad players.

 

Damage meters are not going to end your raiding woes and the only real place they are needed is in Soa and the mechanics of the fight such as dodging/soaking orbs and positioning for DPS phase are what really needs to be overcome, not the overall Damage or healing output.

 

I'm all for combat log, custom UI and macros but meters aren't going to change much.

[master_axe]

@codaKing

 

Fool. You're a child, aren't you? As long as all content is face roll, you don't "need" anything. If everyone can do it, fine. Do you want to play a game where everything is doable by everyone under every circumstance?

 

Why collect loot, then? Why raid, if it's face roll? What do you want better gear for?

 

I mean, to be against damage meters shows such a fundamental flaw in ones analytic ability and lack of thought put into the subject, that it really wastes everyones time to speak with these people.

[GengisKahn]

Lets suppose damage meters are available right now. How would you use them to actually make decisions? Assuming their main purpose is for EV lets go through the boss fights and see how effective they actually are.

 

Annihilation Droid - Okay I can see a benefit for having meters in this fight but it is totally doable without them so that kind of voids their use.

 

Gharj - Again doable without meters.

 

Pillars - I don't see damage meters making any difference in this encounter what so ever.

 

Council - No need for meters here at all as you can see who finishes their duel early and who does not.

 

Soa - This is were it gets tricky. Meters would be very helpful here BUT they would have to take into account game mechanics. It is very likely that your best healer and DPS will either get thrown around the room or mind trapped more than your worst healer and DPS so the meters will actually favor your mediocre and bad players.

 

Damage meters are not going to end your raiding woes and the only real place they are needed is in Soa and the mechanics of the fight such as dodging/soaking orbs and positioning for DPS phase are what really needs to be overcome, not the overall Damage or healing output.

 

I'm all for combat log, custom UI and macros but meters aren't going to change much.

 

 

How can people still dont understand?

 

Meters (and training dummies, and combat log) HELP YOU MAXIMIZE YOUR TOON, so they help in every single fight you can think of, and not only that, they will help your leveling and flashpoint runs too, because, YOUR TOON WOULD BE MAXIMIZED.

 

It's a matter of self improvement (and after self improvement help others improve as well).

 

Meters change more than you think, the problem is that you actually have to know what they could be used for.

 

And no damm MMO should be ever launch without a customizable UI, we are in 2012 god dammit, we dont want the UI the same, we have different tastes for it (and i'm not talking about bars only), its common sense.

Edited January 16, 2012 by GengisKahn

[SpaceJ]

Thanks for adding such a well informed opinion to this post. Even if you are "trolling" at least have the common decency to back up a point with facts instead of random observations.

 

This idea that combat logs/damage meters are "handholding", is so asinine. A combat log will not tell you how to play your class. You as a player are still required to adjust your strategy. A combat log will also identify what causes deaths, something that can't accurately be tracked in the middle of a hectic encounter.

 

PROOF OF THE REAL REASON PEOPLE WANT THIS:

 

How can people still dont understand?

 

Meters (and training dummies, and combat log) HELP YOU MAXIMIZE YOUR TOON, so they help in every single fight you can think of, and not only that, they will help your leveling and flashpoint runs too, because, YOUR TOON WOULD BE MAXIMIZED.

 

It's a matter of self improvement (and after self improvement help others improve as well).

 

Meters change more than you think, the problem is that you actually have to know what they could be used for.

 

And no damm MMO should be ever launch without a customizable UI, we are in 2012 god dammit, we dont want the UI the same, we have different tastes for it (and i'm not talking about bars only), its common sense.

 

 

Really? Because the most strident people asking for a combat log want it to determine their optimal DPS rotation. As for facts, I only have personal observations of myself and everyone that's already beaten the content without a baby crutch. Sure, some are asking about it for the purpose of picking apart Flashpoints, but in every flashpoint I've done the cause of death is usually something obvious. Like a grenade landing on you, a missile hitting your face, or a lightsaber through your spine. It isn't rocket science. And again, the boss buff bar or cast bar will tell you what they're doing. It just requires you to be alert. This is why it is, quite literally, handholding. QED.

 

For a lesser example, I am a healer, and was healing a guild run of Hard Mode False Emperor. On the first boss (with the ship) I observed a lot of people getting hit by the rocket strike that you can avoid by staying out of the red targeting reticule. They said they were out of the range of the ability, but on my screen they were in it completely. With how the game can be buggy at times, I could not accurately tell if that was what had happened. With a combat log, I could look in and see if the ability did damage them and make sure that we were being careful to stay out of it.

 

So, you say you saw them standing directly in the red cross-hair of the missile strike. You think there's really a question of what hit them? This is hand-holding, and no combat log will do anything to fix people being stupid or laggy. You even admit, plainly, that you saw exactly what happened. There is no question of what hit them. If you see the boss 'casting' his missile strike, then see the missile strike land, then see your party die, it might be the missile strike that killed them. Just saying.

 

I'm not trolling, it's just a silly issue. I've played many other MMO's, and in all of them the only thing people use the parser for is to compare E-Peen DPS. That's it. Perhaps once I've seen it used for E-Peen HPS. That's the only exception. Every other thing can be measured by taking your head out of your behind and using basic observation skills. Will it be 100% accurate and infallible? No. Do you need it to be 100% accurate and infallible? No. People are defeating all the instances with common sense and their giant brains. Therefore it isn't required, therefore it's far below any bug fixes, cosmetic changes, and really anything else should take precedent over hand-holding. The only part of this I don't violently oppose is a customizable UI, that's something I can 100% get behind. The rest is just a way for the hardcore community to try and sqeeze out .036% higher DPS than what was previously thought to be the maximum on a type A-37 spec. IA/S tree. We both know it's true. (Yeah, I just made up that ultra-technical definition but I'm not far off the mark here.)

Edited January 16, 2012 by SpaceJ

[GengisKahn]

PROOF OF THE REAL REASON PEOPLE WANT THIS:

 

 

 

 

Really? Because the most strident people asking for a combat log want it to determine their optimal DPS rotation. As for facts, I only have personal observations of myself and everyone that's already beaten the content without a baby crutch. Sure, some are asking about it for the purpose of picking apart Flashpoints, but in every flashpoint I've done the cause of death is usually something obvious. Like a grenade landing on you, a missile hitting your face, or a lightsaber through your spine. It isn't rocket science. And again, the boss buff bar or cast bar will tell you what they're doing. It just requires you to be alert. This is why it is, quite literally, handholding. QED.

 

 

 

So, you say you saw them standing directly in the red cross-hair of the missile strike. You think there's really a question of what hit them? This is hand-holding, and no combat log will do anything to fix people being stupid or laggy. You even admit, plainly, that you saw exactly what happened. There is no question of what hit them. If you see the boss 'casting' his missile strike, then see the missile strike land, then see your party die, it might be the missile strike that killed them. Just saying.

 

I'm not trolling, it's just a silly issue. I've played many other MMO's, and in all of them the only thing people use the parser for is to compare E-Peen DPS. That's it. Perhaps once I've seen it used for E-Peen HPS. That's the only exception. Every other thing can be measured by taking your head out of your behind and using basic observation skills. Will it be 100% accurate and infallible? No. Do you need it to be 100% accurate and infallible? No. People are defeating all the instances with common sense and their giant brains. Therefore it isn't required, therefore it's far below any bug fixes, cosmetic changes, and really anything else should take precedent over hand-holding.

 

Combat logs are not hand holding, and yes, meters primary purpose is to maximize your toon, why is that a bad thing? why is that handholding? Respeccing for dozens several builds and testing each of them with an accurate meassurement tool to see which one is better is hand holding?

 

If you dont want to maximize your toon, if you dont want to check what happened in a fight, then so be it (you clearly show that you have never, ever been even closer to a competitive guild in others MMOs if you say combat logs dont provide info that you might have passed by).

 

Nothing has more priority than a combat log and target dummies from my point of view. Not even bugs (you will never have 0 bugs).

[Perkunas]

There are more things that meters show than just flat DPS. As a healer I would like meters for things like target healed, breakdowns of the abilities and how often they are used by the other healers, uptime of procs and buffs, damage taken from source, targets swapped, CC's done/broken, dispels done by target x, death recap(grim reaper), damage absorbed.

 

Just because somebody might make you feel bad doesn't mean that meters should be banned. Raid with people who are like-minded and you can continue to play as you wish. Don't force the community to wallow in mediocrity for fear of being called out.

[SpaceJ]

Combat logs are not hand holding, and yes, meters primary purpose is to maximize your toon, why is that a bad thing? why is that handholding? Respeccing for dozens several builds and testing each of them with an accurate meassurement tool to see which one is better is hand holding?

 

If you dont want to maximize your toon, if you dont want to check what happened in a fight, then so be it (you clearly show that you have never, ever been even closer to a competitive guild in others MMOs if you say combat logs dont provide info that you might have passed by).

 

Nothing has more priority than a combat log and target dummies from my point of view. Not even bugs (you will never have 0 bugs).

 

It's hand-holding because it requires you to do nothing other than punch a defenseless dummy for hours on end trying to squeeze out an extra 1%. It's hand-holding because you can easily do the math, AS IS, to determine the optimal configuration for a given character class. The character sheet gives you the raw numbers, and your powers have their base values already listed. Combine these with the cool-down that's listed then solve for the average. The tree even lists the increase or change of values for any ability you're modding. This is simply laziness or an inability to solve complex math equasions. I guess you're just a 'hardcore' raider and not a 'hardcore' math person.

 

(As a side-note, I am not a hardcore math person either. However, these numbers are all easily found on the character sheet and ability window. I know I'm lazy, but what's your excuse if you really want the answers to these questions. Oh, right, you're waiting for your hand to be held.)

[Zhentarion]

Dmg meter damn The elite are crying if you get the boss you get the boss if not you die

Dmg Meter = Lable ...Elite love to lable ppl you dont have the right gear you dont use the right specc bla bla bla

 

Wow Plauge

[Pubix]

I would love Damage Meter's for personal use but at the sametime I'm hoping Damage Meters dont make it to the game, not everyone is going to play at top skill even with dmg meters or w/e and with Damage Meters others use those to call out people and make fun of them, I hate being in a group and having to listen to someone complain about another persons DPS just being Terrible... we all play this game to have fun... and Dmg Meters alot of time are abused

 

Because everybody enjoys getting that one gimp in their raid who can't spec correctly, mod their gear or even do the correct rotation. Clearly everybody wants to carry this useless player without the knowledge that they are useless. Have fun hitting enrage timers and not knowing why!

[Rattius]

Why does this keep coming up?

 

We were told that combat logs might even be in for launch. Well obviously they didn't make it in for launch, so the conclusion that can be drawn from this is that they are not that far out.