Tokosteef Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) Hello, Captain Obvious reporting in, but anyway. This is not meant as a whine, I'm just noticing in Hutball ranged classes always do 2x/3x the damage of melee classes. For example just a second ago two level 50 gunslingers both topped the damage with around 400k dmg each by just standing next to eachother on a platform above and firing away. I try to group up and kill them of course, but as a Scoundrel myself, I find it very hard to survive on those platforms. For example, trying to kill / CC one of the gunslingers, you have Lightning/bolts/missiles incoming from 5 ledges away.. Run or die. There is NOTHING I can do except try to LOS or die. Can't DMG back, can't leap up there, nothing. Only vanish once every 2 minutes or otherwise it's smooth sailing for them. Fighting someone on one of those platforms is impossible for me. AOE Pushed into a pit, focus fire from above. I try to cope with this by evading the higher places, trying to fight my fights in places I can use LOS as much as possible, but this does not allow me to contribute to the objectives of the match at all. Again, I'm not complaining, just wondering out loud whether the ranged advantage is too big to ignore. Edited January 2, 2012 by Tokosteef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionOfMing Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hmm really? I dont really notice it.. I play a Sith Juggernaut i usually just Force Charge and just smack them to death... and if they CC me ill just let them run and re-engage with Force charge again.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokosteef Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) Hmm really? I dont really notice it.. I play a Sith Juggernaut i usually just Force Charge and just smack them to death... and if they CC me ill just let them run and re-engage with Force charge again.... As stated above, I'm a scoundrel. Beside a Vanish on a 2 minute cooldown, (specced even) we have no gap closer. Add to that being a very squishy class you drop dead in 5 seconds of focus fire. Best to prevent these repetitive deaths is by not bothering with the objectives at all, making you useless for the team. Edited January 2, 2012 by Tokosteef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zetara Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) Organise your team, point them out in /ops. Have your own ranged team fire at them. Shout at any ranged people you can see that aren't hitting them. If you leave someone to do what they want, then they can sit there doing damage uninterrupted of course they are going to come out on top. If there are 2 up high and 6 below, you don't need all 8 of you to take on those 6 below. Kick 2 people into gear and sort it out. People don't use /ops enough. Grab a buddy and do it yourself, or look for the ranged on your team and tell them to. They don't have an advantage by default, your team (not you personally) handed them the advantage by ignoring them. As a scoundrel you could have closed the gap with stealth and then opened up on them, obviously you'd melt afterwards so you'd have to take a friend, or alternatively shout at your troopers in /ops, or get a melee jedi to use their force leap to close the gap and mess them up. Don't accept the rest of your team being lazy and don't be afraid to shout at someone who is messing about and not working as part of the team. Edited January 2, 2012 by Zetara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorzz Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Scoundrels and operatives are at a loss in hutball, im doing fine as a assassin and im sure most other classes are doing fine also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knyght Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 If you have stealth try staying in their Endzone area to be passed to for a score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokosteef Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 Organise your team, point them out in /ops. Have your own ranged team fire at them. Shout at any ranged people you can see that aren't hitting them. If you leave someone to do what they want, then they can sit there doing damage uninterrupted of course they are going to come out on top. If there are 2 up high and 6 below, you don't need all 8 of you to take on those 6 below. Kick 2 people into gear and sort it out. People don't use /ops enough. Grab a buddy and do it yourself, or look for the ranged on your team and tell them to. They don't have an advantage by default, your team (not you personally) handed them the advantage by ignoring them. As a scoundrel you could have closed the gap with stealth and then opened up on them, obviously you'd melt afterwards so you'd have to take a friend, or alternatively shout at your troopers in /ops, or get a melee jedi to use their force leap to close the gap and mess them up. Don't accept the rest of your team being lazy and don't be afraid to shout at someone who is messing about and not working as part of the team. The problem with this is people never listen. You make some nice points but the point of this thread is actually to point out the big ranged advantage, I'm not saying it's impossible to kill them. You posting all these tactics kind of confirms for me that the advantage is too big to ignore. Maybe it's an idea for Bioware to move the map around a bit to make it more melee-friendly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordius Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Organise your team. /thread Case closed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rankith Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 The problem with this is people never listen. You make some nice points but the point of this thread is actually to point out the big ranged advantage, I'm not saying it's impossible to kill them. You posting all these tactics kind of confirms for me that the advantage is too big to ignore. Maybe it's an idea for Bioware to move the map around a bit to make it more melee-friendly. Ranged has an advantage in most cases. Thats just he nature of it. Add a difference in height and no immediate way up and well... yeah, sucky for melee. Being a socundrel doesnt help either. You are the least mobile melee class which is just asking for bad times . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fujitasix Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 If you can't find LoS in Huttball, you need more help then the devs can deliver. The upper scaffolds even have pillars. Mobility buttons are far more of an advantage, and as a gunnery commando, I don't have any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaidax Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Yup, we DO have an advantage in a pure non-premade match. That is quite obvious and is coming from a simple fact that ranged usually have a better surroundings awareness and are having easier time picking right targes in relative safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zetara Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 The problem with this is people never listen. You make some nice points but the point of this thread is actually to point out the big ranged advantage, I'm not saying it's impossible to kill them. You posting all these tactics kind of confirms for me that the advantage is too big to ignore. Maybe it's an idea for Bioware to move the map around a bit to make it more melee-friendly. Melee classes have their gap breaker. They don't have an advantage, if anything it makes them stick out more by being isolated. They only have an advantage if they are facing an 8 man team where all 8 of them leave them to their own devices. If people don't listen, give it out to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanotech Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Organise your team Yeah, right. I don't know about your server, but no one listens on mine. It's more likely that you'll get flamed for even bothering to care; i see it happen all the time. It's all about deathmatching in the middle and nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zetara Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) Yeah, right. I don't know about your server, but no one listens on mine. It's more likely that you'll get flamed for even bothering to care; i see it happen all the time. It's all about deathmatching in the middle and nothing else. I haven't had that problem myself, but the solution is to make a premade then. Shout in fleet for a group that works together for PVP. You'll get whispers in no time, tell them before you queue that it's teamwork based. I do this all the time, in TOR, DCUO etc. On other games like EVE I've always had a guild/alliance but on queue based games you just have to advertise for players in fleet and watch the /w come in. Then add them to your friends list, build a network of people you know are good at PVP. There is no excuse for having to PUG. You pug because you choose to, if you shout for people to PVP you will get instant premades and have more fun. If you choose not to do that, then it's your choice not to do that but you can't blame others for doing it and playing a multiplayer game with multiple players. Making the choice to PUG, is essentially saying 'I accept in advance that what I am bout to do, could result in being paired with players who don't play the way I want them to, and could do their own thing and contribute to a loss' if you continue on that path, and that happens, then well, what did you expect. Just shout in fleet "LF3M for PVP queue only accepting people working with the team" and watch your chat box expand. Add them to friends list if they are good. Edited January 2, 2012 by Zetara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanotech Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) I haven't had that problem myself, but the solution is to make a premade then. Shout in fleet for a group that works together for PVP. You'll get whispers in no time, tell them before you queue that it's teamwork based. I do this all the time, in TOR, DCUO etc. On other games like EVE I've always had a guild/alliance but on queue based games you just have to advertise for players in fleet and watch the /w come in. Then add them to your friends list, build a network of people you know are good at PVP. There is no excuse for having to PUG. You pug because you choose to, if you shout for people to PVP you will get instant premades and have more fun. If you choose not to do that, then it's your choice not to do that but you can't blame others for doing it and playing a multiplayer game with multiple players. Yes, yes, I understand that forming a PUG is the best way to avoid this problem. That's not what we were discussing though nor was I suggesting that I can't win in PvP. I was merely pointing out that what counts as a solution on your server only exists as a fallacy on mine. Regardless, that's not what the OP was talking about. Ranged do have a serious advantage in Huttball. None of what you are suggesting changes that just because you can dream up ways to counter it. Edited January 2, 2012 by Nanotech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zetara Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 None of what you are suggesting changes that just because you can think up ideas to counter it. That's exactly why they don't have an advantage because it's easily shut down. They only have an advantage if you give them one. Tbh I think the force users with their charge have a much bigger advantage because it seemingly can't be stopped, ranged users don't have an advantage because you can just use a gap closer as a melee and smash them. Does this mean that melee have an advantage in huttball because they can just gap close to the ranged person and mess them up? Then it's surely unfair right because the ranged person is at a disadvantage to the melee? They only have an advantage if your team does something that gives them one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackcerberus Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) huttball? ranged have absolute advantage in any game and the amount of CC on demand they have is also totally insane yet another game that fails to realize the importance of having reactionary CC instead of on demand, and the concept of "give CC only to tanks, not to everybody and their dog too" Edited January 2, 2012 by blackcerberus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atrox Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Significant ranged advantage in every WZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanotech Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) That's exactly why they don't have an advantage because it's easily shut down. They only have an advantage if you give them one. Tbh I think the force users with their charge have a much bigger advantage because it seemingly can't be stopped, ranged users don't have an advantage because you can just use a gap closer as a melee and smash them. Does this mean that melee have an advantage in huttball because they can just gap close to the ranged person and mess them up? Then it's surely unfair right because the ranged person is at a disadvantage to the melee? They only have an advantage if your team does something that gives them one. Sorry, I think you are reaching. The map is clearly built with a ranged advantage. You can theorycraft and hypothesize and stretch your circumstantial solution in a thousand different ways, but that isn't going to change. Also: you know little about Force Charge, as do most people apparently. You can't charge a target behind cover and in many, many situations one knockback can completely nullify it. Edited January 2, 2012 by Nanotech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zetara Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Sorry, I think you are reaching. The map is clearly built with a ranged advantage. You can theorycraft and hypothesize and stretch your circumstantial solution in a thousand different ways, but that isn't going to change. Also: you know little about Force Charge, as do most people apparently. You can't charge a target behind cover and in many, many situations one knockback can completely nullify it. So tell me what advantage ranged has? There is no stretching, it's quite simple. See a ranged guy, CC him, gap close him, mess him up. He's dead. Move out of his range. Both viable options. Your point about not being able to charge a target behind cover doesn't really make sense, the cover users are squishy and you can finish/scare them off without any big attacks. The biggest danger to you from range really are bounty hunter/troopers who don't use cover. If they are out of LOS then they are not damaging you and have no advantage. If you target them and wait for them to come out, instant gap close. The reason in the OP that the ranged people 'had an advantage' is because by the OP own admission his entire team did nothing, and just left them to do their own thing. If they actually did something to get rid of the ranged guys, they wouldn't have had an advantage. I play ranged and melee and when I play on my ranged char, if people leave me alone I get to do what I want and rack up the kills and damage, however what competent people do is CC me, or sneak up on me stealthed, or the jedis use their force leap to land wherever I am etc etc. The layout has nothing to do with it when any jedi can push a button to join me where I am standing. Also RE: Force charge, I may have got the name wrong, I was referring to the superspeed when you pick up the Huttball and activate it. That to me is a bigger advantage than someone shooting at range who can easily be jumped to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Indomitus Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hello, Captain Obvious reporting in, but anyway. This is not meant as a whine, I'm just noticing in Hutball ranged classes always do 2x/3x the damage of melee classes. And ofc the total amount of dmg you have at the end of a game is what matters for pvp, right? Make a full ranged premade and lets play Huttball then, would you like that? Start thinking PvP as a group activity or you are out of place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanotech Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 So tell me what advantage ranged has? There is no stretching, it's quite simple. See a ranged guy, CC him, gap close him, mess him up. He's dead. Move out of his range. Both viable options. Your point about not being able to charge a target behind cover doesn't really make sense, the cover users are squishy and you can finish/scare them off without any big attacks. The biggest danger to you from range really are bounty hunter/troopers who don't use cover. If they are out of LOS then they are not damaging you and have no advantage. If you target them and wait for them to come out, instant gap close. The reason in the OP that the ranged people 'had an advantage' is because by the OP own admission his entire team did nothing, and just left them to do their own thing. If they actually did something to get rid of the ranged guys, they wouldn't have had an advantage. I play ranged and melee and when I play on my ranged char, if people leave me alone I get to do what I want and rack up the kills and damage, however what competent people do is CC me, or sneak up on me stealthed, or the jedis use their force leap to land wherever I am etc etc. The layout has nothing to do with it when any jedi can push a button to join me where I am standing. Also RE: Force charge, I may have got the name wrong, I was referring to the superspeed when you pick up the Huttball and activate it. That to me is a bigger advantage than someone shooting at range who can easily be jumped to. What? You literally cannot charge a target in cover. It's a game mechanic, not a frame of mind. You are either suggesting that you don't know what you are talking about or that Snipers/Gunslingers do trivial damage. As for the rest of your argument, i'm not going to sit here and debate conjecture and circumstance with you. A subjective argument is wholly worthless. It's like those arguments you had when you were a kid about which of your favorite superheroes would win in a fight. No one is ever going to win, but it was fun to argue about. This is not. I think most people understand that range has the advantage in huttball and it's not really worth arguing with the one person who doesn't get it. Especially not when they are using pedantic fiction to back up their claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiHeilos Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) Enemy in cover < Electrocute < Force Pull < Stab in the face < GG Honestly, Melee have the advantage in huttball. If I run next to one as a ranged class he kills me. It's totally OP. Edited January 2, 2012 by KaiHeilos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zetara Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 What? You literally cannot charge a target in cover. It's a game mechanic, not a frame of mind. You are either suggesting that you don't know what you are talking about or that Snipers/Gunslingers do trivial damage. As for the rest of your argument, i'm not going to sit here and debate conjecture and circumstance with you. A subjective argument is wholly worthless. It's like those arguments you had when you were a kid about which of your favorite superheroes would win in a fight. No one is ever going to win, but it was fun to argue about. This is not. I think most people understand that range has the advantage in huttball and it's not really worth arguing with the one person who doesn't get it. Especially not when they are using pedantic fiction to back up their claims. There is no fiction, it's fact. that's how you are supposed to deal with ranged people. If you don't want to do that, that's your problem. You still have yet to tell me why a ranged person has a massive advantage. All you're doing is copping out of telling me what this advantage is post after post. I didn't at any point say you could charge a target in cover either. You're making that up. I'll leave you with the definition of the word advantage. A condition or circumstance that puts one in a favorable or superior position. Now it's already well established that stealth classes do weak damage out of stealth, and their massive damage is from coming out of stealth attacks in burst which cannot be sustained, let alone at range, or up close shiv/backstab attacks. They are not your problem. I also said this in my post if you bothered to read it, the ranged classes that cause you problems are bounty hunters and troopers. These cannot use cover. So your argument of not being able to charge someone who has cover is void. They have no favourable position, if you can push a button to land next to them and say 'Oh, hai there!!!' A favourable position, would be a safe place you couldn't get to them at. Being able to join them by pushing a button is what's called a level field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanotech Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) There is no fiction, it's fact. that's how you are supposed to deal with ranged people. If you don't want to do that, that's your problem. You still have yet to tell me why a ranged person has a massive advantage. All you're doing is copping out of telling me what this advantage is post after post. I didn't at any point say you could charge a target in cover either. You're making that up. I'll leave you with the definition of the word advantage. Now it's already well established that stealth classes do weak damage out of stealth, and their massive damage is from coming out of stealth attacks in burst which cannot be sustained, let alone at range, or up close shiv/backstab attacks. They are not your problem. I also said this in my post if you bothered to read it, the ranged classes that cause you problems are bounty hunters and troopers. These cannot use cover. So your argument of not being able to charge someone who has cover is void. They have no favourable position, if you can push a button to land next to them and say 'Oh, hai there!!!' A favourable position, would be a safe place you couldn't get to them at. Being able to join them by pushing a button is what's called a level field. The fact that I have to tell you anything of what you're asking for is the direct reason why I won't. You're an absolute waste of my time. If you need me to concede to make yourself feel better, then fine, i'm totally copping out: you win. Edited January 2, 2012 by Nanotech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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