Several good thoughts/tips in here. And a few not all that good. If using the Watchman tree and having access to Overload saber, the stasis ability is really good vs. say 1 tough mob/gold/semi boss. Dump the stackable crit-burns/dots(= short timered Heal Over Timer) followed by stasis and you'll get this: - Fair amount of combined damage(several Damage Over Time abilites ticking, including stasis itself). - Gaining health. - Gaining focus. - Effectively hindering/stunning mob from do damage to you(getting you somewhat closer to next defensive pop).. - If using healer companion you gain a few seconds to have the comp heal you(and itself) as well. Solo PvE becomes notable easier with Sent/Mara, if using Stasis ever so often(in a somwhat wise fashion). That said, for the FUN of it, around level 37-40 I went Combat tree and while losing the self-healing, I combined: - 5% baseline defence. - 6% Defence from Saber Screen(up with a few seconds of dps'ing). - 10% Transcendence. - 12-18% Defence from augments and enhancements ... meaning that a few seconds into a fight I had about 23-28% "static" defence and with Transcendence that became 33-38% defence(often trying to pop this when the other defensive abilities were down - thus maintaining a almost steady "stream" if not THAT bad semi-tankish ability). I'm sure I had some relic to further increase the defence some additional 30 seconds. Not overly effective, but worked well enough for solo exping. Was fun though and allowed me to be more tankish than some real tank classes who either didn't have enough stats nor defensive abilites. Or/and who was yet to learn their class.

Spot on.

Yes, how bad wouldn't it be to have YET another movie with children/teenagers or/and young adults as the main characters? I don't know about you but that started to feel old a long time ago(pun ftw). Thus how terrible would it be to allow loved, classic and well known characters(as well as actors) to show the results of "all those years" of development of their personalities(+ more)? And more so over time within the movie(s) itself? Middle age as well as old characters. That way we might even get somewhat free of some of our RL times unhealthy focus. I've heard that GOOD experienced/elderly actors could be compared to old GOOD wine. It gets better with age(experience). While that might not hold true at all times, it do offer some intresting perspectives. Wouldn't you say? It might not be a new take on things in the genre, but for one I'd feel refreashed.

Did this Scoundrel have a lot of time to heal it's team m8s? Or/and did the Scoundrel do a lot of damage to you and your team m8s? Or just an excellent sprinter(roller)?

Good answer. While I see your points, and kinda agree with a few(or at least understand your perspective), I'm not all in agreement. I might or I might not try a half witty reply some other day, at a somewhat earlier hour. Bah... Ok about one of my points, was about you(and KBN) being a representive for those of us that don't like the removal of self heals, we're your people too, hehe(no matter your own opinions and beliefs). And I hope you'll speak up on our behalf as well. Thanks for nice answer. //DG

Well "remind" for me, indicates that it's already known. I'm not saying anything about KBN nor Xinika. Rather I'm telling some of my thoughts regarding the matter at hand. And since I perceived KBN having more of a focus on numbers and what we could call "static facts" - I felt like making my "voice" heard. I'm rather neutral regarding both KBN and Xinika. So don't worry, I'm not saying anyone of them "is that or is this" nor "does this & does that". I've myself been a class representative of a underdog class in another mmorpg(tank-melee-caster hybrid... of all things ) for several years and I know it's not a walk in the park(well, sometimes it just might be that, others times not as much - ups and downs). And not just in games, but in the world at large, one could argue that "numbers" and "facts" getting more and more focus in many places. For example, in schools, health care and even therapeuts of different kinds all too often have to "get the numbers right". It's often not a healthy way of doing and "fixing" those things(my job to be involved in matters such as that). Of course it shouldn't be removed. Maybe a good word or two in this context could be "good balance"(take both/all sides into consideration, more or less equal focus). Thus when I perceive(I don't have to be right, it's my experience of the posts I've read) such imbalance yet again - I felt I'd like to express some of my "fears", and remind KBN and Xinika of these things. As well as express my disappointed thoughts and feelings IF mentioned changes would take place. You happy with that answer Doulo, or would you like to get additional thoughs/information?

Sorry, my attempt at irony might not have been obvious(or just might be my phrasing of it, since english ain't my 1th language). I'll try make it more obvious next time. And no, I never asked to get ridd of self heals(but yeah, some people did that, in some manner).

Xinika, I'd like to remind you about you not only being a "class representative", but also a "representative of the People playing a certain class". I think you know the difference as well as the synergy. While I nor no one else, probably, have or even could get accurate numbers of the people thinking/feeling This or That. It could be seen as safe to assume that Quite many people play the class because of it's lore, because of it's own uniqueness(tank class with small amount of self healing and stealth), because of the feel of the class, because of the story(lots of healing)... and a few other things(like the heal relics, I kinda enjoy that bit, and so does several other people). ... thus one could argue that a representative would also take All these people(and their thoughts and feelings) into consideration. Don't you think? I'm not a cruncher of numbers, I'm rather a cruncher of minds(lol) and as you may already know... "feelings often enough, do not care about logic"(exists both good and bad sides/consequences because of this, thats another story though). Thus in this aspect you might have to be open about this/these perspective, as well as Also put the numbers aside, to a degree. Bioware have made this game, of course Bioware got the potential to "fix" the spikyness of Shadows/Assassins - while still letting the class keep the healing in the tank stance(as well as the proc X3 on demand heal). Surely it won't be something overly trivial. But quite possible within reason - yes, thats highly likely. Well... fixing it "here and now" probably ain't that much of a hassle, but I mean over time, as the class, gear and game evolves. Please consider my words.

KBN, I'd like to remind you about you not only being a "class representative", but also a "representative of the People playing a certain class". I think you know the difference as well as the synergy. While I nor no one else, probably, have or even could get accurate numbers of the people thinking/feeling This or That. It could be seen as safe to assume that Quite many people play the class because of it's lore, because of it's own uniqueness(tank class with small amount of self healing and stealth), because of the feel of the class, because of the story(lots of healing)... and a few other things(like the heal relics, I kinda enjoy that bit, and so does several other people). ... thus one could argue that a representative would also take All these people(and their thoughts and feelings) into consideration. Don't you think? I'm not a cruncher of numbers, I'm rather a cruncher of minds(lol) and as you may already know... "feelings often enough, do not care about logic"(exists both good and bad sides/consequences because of this, thats another story though). Thus in this aspect you might have to be open about this/these perspective, as well as Also put the numbers aside, to a degree. Bioware have made this game, of course Bioware got the potential to "fix" the spikyness of Shadows/Assassins - while still letting the class keep the healing in the tank stance(as well as the proc X3 on demand heal). Surely it won't be something overly trivial. But quite possible within reason - yes, thats highly likely. Well... fixing it "here and now" probably ain't that much of a hassle, but I mean over time, as the class, gear and game evolves. Please consider my words.

With a try at nice wording... It sux. I rather take the danger of being spiked to death and keep "my" self heals. Without it, it's a lot closer to the Guard/Jugg class. I'm one of those who "love" hybrid classes. If I play in a rather "normal relaxed" way, I'll do better with guard/jugg and van/pt - but when I really concentrate and focus 150%(actually mentally tough) ... well then "stuff" happens(wonderfull stuff, often enough). Obviously the loss of the self healing won't in itself change the whole class. But the FEEL of the whole class(Shadow/Assasin) would become something else, for me. Since I(as many other people) get notable attached to my main class and main character - such a "little" change might ruin the whole game experience for me. While it possibly ain't so, it sure feel like we got "what we deserved" - "you whiny little bunch... TAKE THIS!". I don't want to have a "normalized" and "streamlined" tank class/character as main class/character. //disappointed /EDIT Of course I'd like to keep the tank tree as is AND get some minor tweak to take place to reduce the spikyness. //EDIT 2 I'm mainly concerned with the passive stance heal, and somewhat less concerned about high-tank-tree-spec X3 proc and heal on demand.

With a try at nice wording... It sux. I rather take the danger of being spiked to death and keep "my" self heals. Without it, it's a lot closer to the Guard/Jugg class. I'm one of those who "love" hybrid classes. If I play in a rather "normal relaxed" way, I'll do better with guard/jugg and van/pt - but when I really concentrate and focus 150%(actually mentally tough) ... well then "stuff" happens(wonderfull stuff, often enough). Obviously the loss of the self healing won't in itself change the whole class. But the FEEL of the whole class(Shadow/Assasin) would become something else, for me. Since I(as many other people) get notable attached to my main class and main character - such a "little" change might ruin the whole game experience for me. While it possibly ain't so, it sure feel like we got "what we deserved" - "you whiny little bunch... TAKE THIS!". I don't want to have a "normalized" and "streamlined" tank class/character as main class/character. //disappointed /EDIT Of course I'd like to keep the tank tree as is AND get some minor tweak to take place to reduce the spikyness. //EDIT 2 I'm mainly concerned with the passive stance heal, and somewhat less concerned about high-tank-tree-spec X3 proc and heal on demand.

I find it a very easy class to solo with(no matter level). Thus most likely have to do with playstyle. ... in the end, go with what "You" find to be the most fun.

Had I been you, I'd react precisely as you just did. So I don't really blame you. I don't have to have "proof" - you're giving that away in most of your posts. But I have no ill will towards you, I'm just trying to "help" the other people in this thread(and that in turn, along the way... might help you).

It's quite understandable why he ain't view himself as a Troll. Also it's rather clear he won't be swayed by the different seemingly obvious logical arguments. To make it as clear as possible, as to why "this is" - one could view our(humans) thinking and understanding(about/regarding a crapload of different things/aras/situations) as the gap/difference between dimensions, explained by Carl Sagan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0WjV6MmCyM (This is something that could be explained in the fields of psychology and neurology, which could be perceived to be my area, instead of theoretical physics, which is more of a little side interest - but the video with Carl Sagan and the perspective of theoretical physics explains it better and more believable that I could do in mere text) Simply put, it would seem he isn't able to percieve your straight forward, quite simple and obvious logic that you present before his very eyes - that is, not until he gets a deeper understanding of... a few Other things. Then... what to do? Well... IF you truly want him to start understanding, you'll have to take another kind of approach altogether(and NOT keep trying to bang logic against his mind). But yes, a internet forum might not be an optimal place for this(but, it might still be possible). Another note... One could argue that while this guy, quite often, "exist" one level/dimension "below" many of you folks, regarding the understanding of different levels of complexity(regarding different things). It would seem that this other person, Andryah(and a few other people in this forum), tend to be one level/dimension "above" quite a few, in some of the understanding. Although the understanding of the social and psychological impact that kind of reasoning/thinking that follows, seem not to be on par - thus alienating Andryah quite a bit. But this is something that happens most of us in one or another way(to a lesser degree). And we sometimes tend to be "below" and other times we seem to be "above". What could be percieved as being important "here" then, is to remember that "throwing" our own logic at each other, quite often won't yield any notable larger degree of understanding. Again, another kind of thinking/speaking/wording/action often have to take place. Regarding the people most close to us as well as strangers and all those in between. While numbers/parses indeed could be important, it's as important(or perhaps more important) to remember that even: " "true numbers", often have a potential of yielding large and quite treacherous lies "(just as several individuals in this thread already pointed out with their own wording).

On the contrary - It's the class that got the most potent (Sent/Mara might be somewhat of a contender with it's dot/burn "heal spec") self-heals in SWtor, out of the classes that got no real heal spec as a class. 100K + healing in WarZones ain't uncommon(but might not be the norm either). (Spec matters ofc, middle dps tree won't yield much healing)

I was a class representive for about 4-5 years in the MMORPG Dark Age of Camelot(shortname: DAoC). The class might have been the worst so called underdog class. And I had to wait several months, yeah at times a year or so, before things went "my" way. Sometimes a struggle, sometimes a really fun co-operative spirit between developer and class representatives such as myself and other ones. Ups and downs, etc. As a class representive, it could be wise to see and understand the importance of "long term" as well as "the overall picture". I hope that next time Kitru embark on the adventure as a representative - this information might be something Kitru keep close at hand. (English ain't my 1th language - Thus spelling and grammar might be... less good)

I think/hope you'd agree with me, that for some people thats not the case. At least after that you've read my post. I understand your point of view Kitru, not sure you see/understand mine though. I've not answered all things, because I might agree with several, or just not see the relevance in others - And when posting this post, it might be more of "a wall of text" then what I'd like it to be(hm, or rather "novell/roman"). Thus cutting down on text. Also I'd like to Point out that English ain't my 1th language(I'm from over the pond - EU), and my "auto correct" ain't in English(and trying not to use it anyway) - thus, it's likely that my post have both grammar and spelling issues here and there. :] Nope not ignoring, I suppose you skimmed the part where I pointed out what part I choose to answer(and that it's my perspective... well I might have made the mad decision to think everyone would understand this was my personal view)? "If I focus at the main question:" - In response to: ""Hey all. I'm looking for the most versatile tank class in the game... ..." It's not only because of this reason, but it could be because of this very reason alone = Yes, stealth(and what follows with it, such as instant re-stealth, etc). This holds true to me(likely not everyones truth though), and that's what I partly choose to convey - My "truth". And yes one could argue that "well thats because you're a *****, that you'd think like that". Also one could argue that numbers don't lie(numbers/calculations/statistics/etc, well you know that stuff, you're quite good at :] ). Actually even seemingly "true" numberers do "lie", but that might be a discussion for another time, but to hint towards what I might be babling about. I'll add that it would seem that no one could(well at least no one seem to have) taken account of all the possible variables. Of course if all possible varables/factors could be identified and measured - Yes then one could possibly say "these numbers don't lie". But we seem to be nowhere near a situation such as that. One could argue that "but Kitru(+ other people) have taken account of enough relevant factors/variables to make Kitrus words kling with more then enough of truths/facts". And yeah, to a big degree, I'd agree with that. But it's not in my flavour(nor, as said, my "truth/facts") - not regarding the main question("first question" might be a bit more accurate though). You see Kitru, it would seem that the shadows/asassins most strong side/thing, would be that "it's a "real" hybrid". In it's core, a hybrid. Of course all classes in SWtor to this date, could indeed be called hybrids. As one could see it, it's something of a core-thingy, regarding the classes of SWtor, all classes could spec relatively high in two different spec trees(two different roles). The shadow/assassin(and remembering that we discussing "of the tanks" and not "of all the classes") have core abilites that provide the shadow/assassin with choices well beyond two, three and even beyond four "roles". Obviously neither one of the two other tank classes ain't restricted to just "two roles" - but those tanks would seem to lack that "real hybrid" thingy. Which cut down on the possible amount of roles. Less roles one could say, would indicate less versatile. I might mention that I'm not only thinking of the "holy Trinity" tank/healer/dps, nor the tank/healer/melee/range kind of roles. Thats a too limited way of seeing/thinking(my opinion ofc). I've played my fair amount of mmorpgs, but mainly I'd say that DAoC(Dark Age of Camelot, a large scale RvR/PvP game, with lots of PvE(although rather boring PvE now a days)) would be my "home". And ... where to begin... Hm, no lets not make this the "the never ending text of all times", hehe. One word - STEALTH. Stealth in itself yield more roles or if you'd like, several more sub-roles. It yields so much more utility(especially more so, since the class Sh./As. already got melee dps, short range dps, semicaster some kind of ranged dps + being a tank + being a semi-sub selfhealing class). What I suggest is: Think/go beyond the "how PvE/PvP is supposed to be played" - and think in term of "whats possible, or almost possible, in the game as a whole - PvP, PvE, exploration etc(and yet several extra things to reflect upon, if one so choose - As a example: socialization(PwP: Player with Player, eh)) - Before, now and later in the game". This is, in my mind, very dependant upon perspective and thinking. I agree that your answer, indeed is your answer(and likely a fair number of other peoples perceived "correct answer"). Here's some of my thinking and perspective: - Guardians suck at(even as a half semi) ranged dps(as in to be able to keep continuing the ranged dps from "real" range). - Guardians suck at being able to have some kind of reliable selfheal(from the perspctive of being able to do it while in battle, say about 2 times each 10th second - with tank spec and someone who could play in a optimized way, one could think that it would be quite much more than about 2 times each 10th second(thinking of everything else that shadows/assassins could use, to get some instant/panic heal) - but I'll settle for 2/10th, lol well, compared to me, you know those numbers better, so I skipp trying to explain that further). - Guardians suck at stealthing(thus not good at scouting, not good at "silent/unnoticed capping in PvP, not as good to use as a "explore-class", not good at gerilla/harrasing capabilites, ofc also because of lacking spammable ranged dps/cc ... etc ... etc). - ... I could probably find a couple of more, but these would seem more then enough. Thus "this" perspective rank the Guardian/Warrior last, as it's mostly resemble a "pure" melee-tank. The class VG/PT have largely the same problems, but not regarding the range(and thats pretty big, I'd say). Putting all things considered(and both of us seems far from mentioned "all things"), the VG/PT above Guardians/Warriors, with Shadow/Assassin at the top. I understand you see it as a gimmick, Phase Walk that is. For one such as myself, who quite like to explore places - Phase Walk could be deemed godsend(ofc the "gimmick" got other uses - although I acknowledge that PW lacks in several ways). I see what you ment with "stick to the things that *only* that class can do..."(etc) - I've learnt though, that even "common" and "stuff that other have/do" could(and often do) interact in quite a few "none obvious ways". Meaning that it's the unique compound that makes the Shadow/Asassin, that might matter a lot. Thus while making a list/chart might be a good idea and show/give some really good and relevant information - It's deemed "dangerous" to mainly have focus aimed at lists/charts/statistics/etc such thinking and testing often miss out on a lot of things. ... "Blinding facts"... yes indeed. About what I should stick to... Wait - Did you just try to tell me how I should think, how I should reply, how I should hold my own views back and my way of formulate answers/thoughts/questions ain't acceptable? Sorry, such a "hinthint" makes little to no sense to me(actually it does, but not in the way you'd imagine, I'd imagine). Now, my time to take a try on a little education. Ever heard of "polarization" Kitru? If you indeed already do understand that concept Kitru, and at the same time want to help people understand more about this game(actually, if you're intresting in helping people in any setting/situation/enviroment(irl) really). Then you might see that you could have all the worlds possible "truths" and "facts" at your disposal - and still not be of any real extra help towards other people. Of course you ain't doing that bad of a job - I'm trying to make a Point. If you aim at helping/informing/discussing with, people - And choose to, not to learn more constructive ways of communicating - you'd fail quite often to do just that - helping/informing/etc. 1. Please try to avoid to polarize the "first" thing you do. For any of average intelligence you'd appear to have low social skill, low empathy and seem somewhat self-important. Foremost though, you'll be hindering yourself of being able to communicate the information and "facts" that you may posses, to those people. 2. You might like to, not try to put words/meanings in the mouth of other people(I'll get back to this one). 3. Don't do what I partly did in these 3 Points(lol) - meaning try to avoid negations(not that you did overly much of that, but still a important thing to point out, in my view). 4. It could be a quite good idead for you, to avoid telling people what to do, and instead suggest an alternative idea/though/answer/etc. 5. This one relates to the other points. When/if you disagree with someones answer/statement/question/thoughts/etc - You'd both earn more respect(the constructive kind) and avoid to polarize your and the other individuals communication, thoughts and feelings. And if you instead more try to think of it as you didn't understand it from that certain individuals perpsective - And thus ask the individual his/hers line of thought/reasoning(then explain your trail of thought/reasoning). As a good educator or/and therapist often do. Rambling facts and trying to "shut down" other peoples thoughts, reasoning etc(polarization)... Well thats what many politicians(no matter what "political side" they might have) seem to do - I'd say it doesn't become you Kitru, I suspect that you're "better" than that. 6. If you to a larger degree allowed yourself to go beyond many of the already existing structures(be it in game, online, or in any "irl situation"), you might surprise yourself. Not saying it's always a good idea to do it, rather trying to say it could be constructive thing, to be open to other possible(and semingly impossible) possibilites. Facts could often be great to have and be of good use, as a base - Other times/sometimes obvious facts might blurr the larger picture. 7. I'm not suggesting you should "roll over", regarding discussions etc. More rather "try to be humble about it" and when/if you'd want to educate/inform in constructive manners - you'd might like to use functional "tools" to increase your ability to help/inform/educate/socialize with, people. Lastly... I mean no slight Kitru. Simply put, I try to tell you stuff that I help people realize on a weekly basis(ofc not talking of SWtor in mind) - And I don't think you're all oblivious to what I've written. Take care and grats to the position as representative for the class Shadow/Assassin.

If I focus at the main question: "Hey all. I'm looking for the most versatile tank class in the game. By versatile I'm meaning a tank class that can fill a competitive roll in most aspects of the game as tank spec & Dps spec (pve and pvp)." There's one(+ mirror obviously) tank class that got access to all of these things(in one way/spec or Another): - Melee shield+absorb. - Melee defence. - Melee dps. - Semi ranged dps. - Instant "heal button"(+ "dps button" + "reduce damage button + more). - Melee Self heals, possible each 4.5 sec. - Ranged damage ability that also heals(dependant on procs). - Force pull. - AoE "force push". - Stealth. - Stealth CC. - Phase shift. - ... and more of course. All 3 tank classes got their own unique flavour - but should be the Shadow/Assasin that in itself "mirror" most/all class roles + sub roles(regarding the "healing role", it's about self-only heals, that ofc can't compare with a "real" healer class). Shadow/Assasin: The most versatile tank class in the game. At second Place I'd say the VG/PT, that got in-melee ranged dps and defence/shield AND consistent(spamable) ranged dps(granted, not very high - but ineed alot better then "fluff" - with some kind of ranged "burst" to go along with that). I'm one of those individuals that love, and can't help myself, to have each and every class hybrid/hybridish. And I become bored by always "following protocol" - Thus having fun on my VG(and doing quite ok) using it like a stealthish ranged dps(tank-dps hybrid). Fully aware of "it's not meant to be played like that" and that I'd be able to tank and dps alot better if I had focus on "be-in-your-face", and not play as a mainly ranged class. Over time, I truly do my best when having fun - and gaming to me, equal having fun most of the time. Oh and no, I'm not a noob. ;]

The best protection of a Jedi would be the force, then the lightsaber and his/hers own dexterity(and probably a decent amount of wisdom and experience). Consulars(Sages & Shadows) excell in the art of using the force as means of protection/defence(+heals or/and stealth etc). It kinda makes sense.

Yeah - don't delete lvl 50 characters. (I've had friends doing that in different mmorpg's etc, WoW for example, and at some point they always regret the deletion - a new patch could make the class more fun and/or more viable for you) Don't delete. (it's like banging your head real hard in the wall, just because you're having a bad day otherwise)

Yes - would be much fun. AND there's even a droid(similair to R2D2) that somehow got the force(it's in an old Starwars magazine, a short story). Not saying droids should nor shouldn't have access to the force, just a urge to share that information.

Not that I care overly much(but care I do ) - but there's a risk with deciding things /results from "data mining" - it tends to streamline things(in games as well as in real life), removing things that "stands out" - in the long run it's a very good recipe to make things more and more boring, none-unique and more of the same-same-same. Ofc there's quite a bunch that couldn't care less about "certain unique flavour" - as well as for some people it's the "small" sometimes almost unused things that make the game stand out. Those who don't care, usually don't care if it stays or goes - for those who do care about such "small things", it could indeed be game breakers(in the long or short run).

Nice, really like the site.

The scoundrel you seems to be asking about, in the Star Wars universe - could be Lando C - he'd be known to use capes every now and then. But if you're after a quite different style of clothes/armor, you could use moddable Sentiel gear, it's also medium armor just as the smugglers armor type - and have some different looks(mix match smuggler, sentiel, social and cartel market parts - and you'll have a quite decent array of looks to choose from).

Due to your friend being a Scoundrel, and thus having stealth + being able to spec for dps/burst - I'd say that a Shadow might be the overall best choice - while not as good at guarding/"saving" the healer friend, as a Guardian the Shadow is still nice - The fun factor of being 2 stealth classes(and the added utility) could be really great and very fun. Think of when you both get a bit bored by doing the very same-same-same, you could both go dps/burst, being able to capture nods with 2-4 enmies quite fast. Or you could both go range+a bit of melee-"harassment specs". The Guardian while great and fun in itself, it's as good as always a melee class, that does most of it's doing in/while melee(ing). Both Scoundrel and Shadow could kinda be semi-good mid-long range classes, a quite different playstyle(compared to healer+tank, or dps/burst+dps/burst, or anyone of the different but possible specs). And it transfers over to PvE as well, and both being able to stealth past mobs etc.