[PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs]

Actually, we didn't wipe at all. There was an argument over whether we would do the bonus boss or not, and it came up that I my gear "wasn't so good" so they claimed that they didn't want to do the bonus boss with my "low dps." I defended myself and no, I wasn't in tank spec, I respec'd for it like any considerate player would. They had no reason to think my dps was low or that I was holding the group back, but because I defended myself I got kicked because how could I possibly do good dps with such poor gear?

 

What you seem to want to ignore is that elitism still does exist, regardless of whether or not there are meters in the game. Trying to come up with some other reason why I might have been kicked doesn't disprove that. People can and will kick you for completely arbitrary reasons, regardless of meters. I would rather be kicked upon an informed decision at least. If I'm low dps then I can see that I am low dps and the group is at least reasonably justified for kicking me if I'm holding them back. Without dps meters I am being kicked based entirely on an assumption that I am low dps with no evidence to back it up except the fact that I am not in full Rakata. And without meters even if I was in full Rakata I could be the lowest dps in the group and no one would know it; the assumption then becomes that I am better simply because of the gear that I'm wearing not what I am providing in terms of dps for the group.

 

but see, it's ok because Bioware is adding parsable combat logs.

 

So, when a reasonable group of fellas like the ones you grouped with question your ability, you can kindly request for their email address and send them your combat logs. And of course, it's safe to assume they have downloaded a 3rd party parsing program to run the numbers you sent, and objectivly determine that your dps is fine. This is assuming they are able to understand/analyze the data they're looking at. Or are willing to change their mind about your ability based on evidence (because of course, there is nothing stopping them from lying and saying the combat logs show you have bad dps).

 

so yeah, the way Bioware is doing it is completely fine and in no way better than actually giving us in game meters.

 

/sarcasm

[Question to Binders]

So I started trying to Keybind last night and I started simple with only a handful of abilities on a new character. I noticed that it was much more pleasant to be looking mostly at the mobs and appreciating the nice textures of this game but then I realized that abilities with cooldowns are somewhat of a problem. I was having to look back down at my quickbar to see if an ability was off cooldown otherwise I was just mashing random abilities to see if they would fire. That doesnt sound very effecient. If I look back down to my quickslot bar all the time, why am I not clicking?

 

My question to the binders is: How do you know when an ability comes off the cooldown? I can imagine at 50 there are quite a lot of them coming on and off. Do you look down tot he quick bar constantly or do you just use the force?

 

since they added countdown timers to cooldowns, i've been pretty much relying on those. Before it was just based on feel/guessing.

 

But all of my skills display GIANT numbers counting down the seconds. Big enough to be caught in my peripherals

[What's the point of PvP servers?]

So. What's the point of PvP servers? We don't get any valor for killing enemies anywhere except warzones and special zones on Tat and Ilum, which is weird while whole server is PvP.

 

No loot, no valor ... no reward for getting "social" and battle with enemies from other faction. It's just a boring and annoying. Well, now i really don't know why i chose PvP server, i admit it.

 

basically because WoW had PvP servers

[Anyone else addicted to space missions?]

Nope, never like it. So easy that monkey can do them, so slow and boring that I was drinking coffe while doing them and so uninteresting that I NEVER repeat any of them.

 

It's just a filler because BW focus so much on voice acting that everything else in this game is half baked.

 

Aye. I tried a few, didn't like it, and stopped.

 

I went back and tried some space missions again later on in the game, but realized i couldn't control the ship with my WASD keys, because i had unbound A and D from turning to use for skills (since i just turn with my mouse in the main game anyway). And i couldn't be bothered to go switch my bindings just to do some space missions.

[Hoth climate is too "nice"]

Many of the planets used to require you to wear specific clothing items in order to be in their climate. Quesh required you to have a gas mask, Tatooine required you to drink water from the vaporators and Hoth demanded you wear cold weather gear.

 

Saddly the whiners in beta didn't like their 'look' being denied and requested these thematic features be removed. In my opinion it would have made these worlds feel more unique in their appearence and atmosphere by forcing players to look or behave a bit differently.

 

i heard beta also had combat logs. Man....beta sounds like a better game then the one we have now, lol.

[PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs]

I will type it for the 4th time, I am not against combat metrics.

 

If I could have it done my way, it would be a toggle.

 

Again, I only jumped back in this when I saw you comparing it to chat which is just goofy.

 

Haha, so are you just trying to nit-pick flawed arguments from within the over-arching discussion?

 

I do agree, it should be a toggle. One that is off by default. That way, if you couldn't be bothered with combat meters you wouldn't even know they were there.

 

and there should be a chat tab for combat logs, like in WoW.

 

*sigh* a girl can dream...

[PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs]

Because of its POSITIVE effects. As I said, there is no way to replace chat but there are various ways to do combat logs.

 

You might finally be getting it! You can't simply look at the negatives when evaluating something because in many cases the positives outweigh them. Take cars for example, they are a tool that cause lots of deaths but imagine our society if they were removed. Their positive effects far outweigh their negatives.

 

but you're only reason for not including combat metrics is because of the negative effects.

 

That's like banning cars because they can cause deaths.

[PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs]

Not my argument, perhaps you will get an answer from someone that thinks they should be excluded simply due to possible discrimination.

 

I just jumped in when Stupid Drummer started going on about combat logs and chat.

 

inspecting other characters is another in-game tool, that also shares the same, single, negative effect with combat meters and chat logs.

 

That negative effect being the facilitation of greifing and/or negative behavior.

[PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs]

I stopped here...

 

 

 

because it is where you keep getting it wrong. Just because some part of the game shares a negative possibility with another part of game, it does not make them equal.

 

The comparison is dumb for the reason I have stated. THEY SIMPLE ARE NOT EQUAL FEATURES.

 

the utility of the tools may not be equal. The positive aspects may not be equal.

 

Now, bear with me....

 

...this is where it gets tricky...

 

THE NEGATIVE EFFECTS ARE EXACTLY THE SAME!

 

If the negative effect of one tool merits it's exclusion from the game, then what right does another tool, with the exact same negative effect, have to exist in the game?

[Does BW think before design?]

This simply a general question that I'm looking for some opinions on. I'm a huge star wars fan and that is the major reason I'm playing. Apart from comparison to other mmos, what are your thoughts on biowares success or failure of the game?

 

With the guild summit, there were many questions asked and answered and one that boggles my mind is that the devs did not even know they didn't have a ready check. This brought to light that the devs 1. Assume they have things in game that really aren't. 2. A lack of useful QA where they repeatedly avoid issues that are relating to players unsubbing. Though the effect of the unsubs are not immediate, how will BW when the empty servers and other such factors ( faction imbalances over 2.0 ratio, ect...). These 2 points I believe show some of the ignorance and misplaced pride BW has in this games "success".

 

Another note on this is the fact that many argue that this 1.2 really is a "re-launch". With many of these updates incorporating what other mmos have now. Though those mmos didn't launch with combat log or guild banks, ect... There is now a certain expectation with mmo launches that no matter what you play for, pvp, pve, rp or whatever, there are expected basics now. With swtor being an expected awesome mmo unlike the rest, it really lacks much to separate it and put above the bar of any mmo. Though this was the largest launch many factors such as SW fan base, mmo player base growing, ect... Contribute to that, not merely it being a great game.

 

The stories are awesome and many things are great about this game hence why I will play still but what are opinions on, is BW thinking before designing? Or are they just so consumed with there initial numbers that they are failing to think of the repercussions of their failure to address and deliver on major issues.

 

As support for my acquisitions I would urge people to just browse forums casualty and take a heavy look at the QA over the weeks. The thread discussions of the QA initially were 50+ pages long but the most recent is 7. People are losing faith in BW and that's a huge indicator. Why discuss a bad QA by the devs that avoid major issues relating to a players happiness in gameplay.

 

If a Dev or any other BW employee reads this, I highly urge you to reflect on this and do so quickly and act quickly. Your income is your player base and the more your player base is unhappy the more money you lose. Whether it be at the end or beginning of each month so you can see numbers dropping or rising.

 

 

I want this game to succeed but with the rate it is going, going to have to hold onto the mustard seed faith pretty strong.

 

IMO, they took a lot of the "what" from WoW, but not the "why."

 

I mean, WoW has two factions right? Lets put in two factions. Even though there is no way to attack the opposite faction's capital or engage in any meaningful world pvp. I mean, what is the point of two conflicting factions if there is no conflict?

[PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs]

Wrong. I ask again, would this game have sold 2m+ copies and had 1.7m renew if there was no chat?

 

No matter what you post, you will never get by the fact that chat is far more important to an MMO than combat logs. Period. End of Story.

 

Finally, I am not against combat logs. I simply do not want wide open public logs. I'd prefer a toggle for our guild runs but barring that, I am not unhappy with Bioware's plan.

 

look dude. this is silly. I am not in any way trying to argue that chat is useless. The fact that you keep thinking im advocating that is very telling.

 

My point is if you're going to focus on the negative behavior combat data allows for, you can't ignore other tools that also facilitate that exact same behavior.

 

The over-arching point is that it is the people who are responsible for their behaviors. Placing the blame on combat metrics is counter-productive to everybody.

 

The way they plan on implementing it sucks, imo. I want to switch out a mod, try my rotations, and know the effects of using said mod immediately. I am way too lazy to alt-tab out of my game to find a text file and load it into a parser.

 

With the current plan, i may check my dps output, like, once. Maybe once every few months. But what i would like is real time feedback, so i can know the difference changing out one itty bitty mod would make on my over all dps.

 

 

Edit; also, the decision by Bioware to implement limited combat metrics to compromise with people that simply wouldn't be bothered to use that information in the first place is very telling about the direction this game is going.

 

I really wanted to play a Star Wars MMO. Instead i got WoW with a Star Wars skin. But even with that, they didn't even get the WoW part right.

[PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs]

Because the positives that chat brings to the game far outweigh the negatives and it simply can't be removed or done "another way" to limit griefing.

 

The same can't be said about combat logs.

 

The comparison to chat is simply ridiculous.

 

The exact same CAN be said about combat logs.

 

They both bring positive features to the game, with the only drawback being that they both can be used to facilitate negative behavior.

 

So now you don't want combat logs because you think they dont bring ENOUGH positive things to the game?

["Clickers"]

stop back pedaling to work

 

ba zing!!

[PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs]

First line their about page of their site.

 

Not even remotely?

 

hah. not even remotely.

 

 

edit; In fact, i would argue that 'games' implies some sort of number, or quantitative indicator.

 

edit #2 - it's like, you want to play Dungeons & Dragons, but without the dice. Or character sheets. Just names and setting.

[PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs]

Because it is not relevant without also looking at what each brings to the game.

 

You can try to spin it any way you want but the simple fact is chat is far more important to an MMO than combat logs. As much as you would like to ignore that fact, you can't.

 

How many would have bought this game or resubbed with no chat?

 

OK. I'm not going to argue chat is useless. That is asinine. Both chat and combat logs bring positive things to the game.

 

However, both of them share the same single, negative side-effect, inherent within the tool, which is that they can be abused by griefers. If you're going to argue that something should be removed because of the negative side-effects, you should pay attention to other tools that facilitate negative behavior.

 

Chat logs bring a lot of positive things to the game. They also bring one negative thing, they make it easier for greifers to greif.

 

Now, take the italisized sentence, and replace the word "Chat Logs" with "Combat metrics." And then tell me how that validates keeping combat metrics out of the game.

[PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs]

Really? Seriously? You're kidding right? So if you are doing hard modes, and Black Talon just happens to be the one.. You get to Mr Irondork and the adds spoil the party, because someone doesn't pick up the adds, or healer gets too much aggro.. Group wipes and LOW dps gets the blame? Really? Or you get to the final boss and and instead of RUNNING away from her, you take a few extra swings to BOOST your dps numbers.. Healer then has to take ADDED time to heal you.. Group wipes, and LOW DPS gets the blame because he actually RAN when he's suppose to instead of dpsing.....

 

There is always MORE to a reason why a group fails or succeeds.. and to use a LOG as your excuse is just unfair and (censor myself)..

 

i think you're assuming much to heavy a reliance on metrics. Yes, dps is not always the problem or answer. Obviously, if you know what happened in the fight without looking at meters, then dont worry about the meters.

 

My point was that have detailed combat information throws out all bias when making certain decisions.

[PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs]

100% false. This is why I didn't want to go down this line with you because you simply refuse to see straight on it.

 

I agree combat logs are useful. But if two SWTOR servers had identical rule sets except one had full open combat logs and no chat, the second had private downloadable logs with chat, which do imagine would be more heavily populated?

 

It is a simple fact that all features are not created equal. That is not based solely on an individual's perception.

 

why did you underline that part of the quote and ignore it? My point was, chats and combat logs, besides being tools, have one other thing in common; they facilitate greifers greifing.

 

now do we remove the tool, because the single down-side is that greifers can use it?

[PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs]

I'll repeat just for you because you're sooooo wonderful.

 

It comes down to what the player base wants. The two basic options are Give them combat logs or don't. Each one of these two options is going to piss off someone.

BioWare has came up with a compromise with Private logs. Those against logs feel protected against those who wish to abuse the tool and those for the logs will get the information to improve themselves. With a little added effort collect logs of others to collaborate theorycraft.

 

So from a business point of view having full combat is not the best choice. Neither no combat logs. Private all the way.

 

Here's your answer that has nothing to do with human behavior but a sound business decision.

 

seldom is my wonderfulness truly appreciated

 

Despite my incredible wonderaucity, i still have a hard time seeing how adding full, real time combat logs hurts the people that don't want them. I mean, you could just not use them...right?

[PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs]

ahh OK.... sorry.. And YES, people will get booted based on numbers when blaming needs to be passed on to someone.. I"ve seen groups that wipe EVEN when the average dps is well above what is needed.. As a result low man on the totem pole gets kicked.. LOL

 

but see, at least, if you get to a situation where someone has to go (albeit an unfortunate and rare situation), you'll at least have the information to determine that your decision was made logically, and not based on feelings or personal grudges towards that player.

[PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs]

You can't be serious.

 

List out all the things chat logs facilitate in the game.

 

Then imagine the game without chat.

 

The fact that feature A can be used to grief and feature B can also be used to grief, does not mean feature A is as valuable to the game as feature B.

 

combat logs and combat metrics are still very important. Maybe different degrees of importance depending on how you play. But the positives of having combat data far outweighs the negatives.

 

Chat and combat logs both provide plenty of positive aspects to the game. But they both only facilitate one negative effect - griefing. So they both have that single negative thing in common.

 

The value of the tool is totally based on your perception. The reality is both tools share the exact same single negative feature.

[PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs]

Thanks for proving my point.

 

so you agree that combat data /= bad behavior?

 

or was that a jab at my seeming inablility to comprehend the causal relationship between in game data and greifing behavior?

[PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs]

Why do YOU need logs (which aren't even accurate) to judge others on their performance or lack their of... ??

 

i was satirizing the idea that, with logs added, people would be booted out of groups for no other reason than the numbers weren't the best possible.

 

it was a joke.

[PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs]

If you can't see why the two things (eliminating chat vs keeping combat logs private) are not remotely the same - anything I post you will simply ignore.

 

all i see is people hating on silly, in-game tools for the behaviors of jerks.

 

I bet you yell at the mailman when your insurance company sends you a letter that you're payments are due

[PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs]

I believe the counter was the pros outweigh the cons. Which is just a prettier way of saying I don't value this thing, so no one should have it.

 

haha. Seregul, you're alright.

 

If you were in my group, i would think twice before booting you for sub-par dps

[PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs]

Someone tried and failed with that argument like 900 responses ago.

 

so while i'm checking through 2k posts, tell me how that argument is fail.

 

edit; there's a good chance i initiated that "remove chat window" argument in the first place, lol