You don't want the challenge for challenge's sake, you want exclusivity, where you can lord your items over someone who may not have the same time available, but is just as devoted to the game and their guild. Having "something to show for it" could be anything from a cool speeder to a pet to a title. You wanting a more substantial (read: stat increase) reward shows that you want to be more powerful than the next guy, instead of showcasing your skills with the gear that is available; that you were able to pull it off, while beginning on equal footing to someone else. That sir, makes you reek of a bully with special snowflake syndrome.

I really appreciate your candor in all this. As far as the analogy, well, thanks for the debate tip! I see what you are saying, but I think (anecdotal at best), that the numbers are a lot more skewed than NFL vs NHL, to the point where it is more like NFL vs Pro Curling. It doesn't make the audience's sport obsolete, it just requires them to go to more niche markets to find what they want, where that is popular. Raids (Ops, whatever) have become increasingly hard to deal with. Logistically speaking, having to work around everyone's schedule with a mature and organized raid group is a nightmare mode in and of itself. On the other hand, I've always been a control junkie when it comes to raiding as well. If I couldn't control it with my tanking or the 2 - 3 others I trust implicitly, it would generally drive me crazy, because my success would hinge on someone else's performance. Maybe just the balance in all of that finally got to me! In any case, you have some decent points, and a well thought out argument, even if we disagree.

So what is is that hardcore raiders want? Higher Challenge or Top Loot? "Hardcore Raiding" shouldn't reward anything more than a feeling of accomplishment from getting the content itself done. Nothing Extra. There should not be any "Risk vs Reward" factor. You either do the raids on hard mode because you like to or you don't. If your argument is that there is no incentive to do so, than the want for challenge in raiding is not enough to outweigh the lust for loot and exclusivity. Vanity items are a decent bridge here. Nothing so much stat-wise, but something that gives a title or completing it would be more in line with a reasonable system. Face it... EQ is a model that will never get as many subscribers as one that is way more accessible. If you want "Epic Raidz" go back to EQ and wait for days to camp a spawn you need 72 people to ace. Those kind of "hardcore" raids perpetuate the stereotype that MMO's are for clammy, basement dwelling trolls. The only way to break that would be to change the model so drastically that anyone can be a part of it, not just those with a lot of time on their hands, which is where MMO Design is going. It's no longer about how to challenge a player, it's about how to retain players. You don't do that by putting massive roadblocks in the way of your basest of players who will remain loyal even if you poke them in the eyes repeatedly. Everyone wants to be the hero and try to be the best. Open accessibility is the way to create that illusion. Another take: Ever since video games became more "art" than "game" the artist wants the participant (player) to experience it as a whole, because if they do not, the art's effect is lost. Just food for thought. Apologies for the abrasive nature of some of this, but the hardcore model is a dinosaur. You only need to look as far as the number of people who play Farmville to see that. Woe to us as gamers when the day comes that Farmville is the only alternative, but it is definitely where it is going.

So, in conclusion, NMM should drop better gear and be super hard? Fine it should be super hard, but I thought hardcore raiders raided for "challenge" not for exclusivity or quality of gear. If no one will run them because the gear drops are the same, then that's a telling factor that most of those "challenge seeking raiders" are just full of it, and just want the gear. Same gear is fine. If you want challenge, go get your challenge, and take solace in the fact that you can do it. You don't need any gear differentiation to prove it if challenge is what you are really after. Of course if that's just a load of bunk because you want better gear..... Overall, the difficulty settings are kind of a "meh" response to the issue, but its the best solution in a world of bad ones. It gives the players the most power over their destiny. Locking people out of raids a la BC until they become obsolete is bad design. Giving different raids for different people doesn't avoid the issue either, and only causes more delineation to be drawn. Overall, one raid mode for everyone with none of the "one person screws up, you all die" mechanics is probably my favorite solution to it all, but it's not everyone's most liked way.